Hit so bad?

So, Having tanked on my pally for quite some time now, I'd say I'm fairly comfortable with things and have adapted easily to each change.

One thing I'm not overly sure on, however, is Hit rating. In BC, this was never something I worried much about. Threat came from being hit and from consecrate mostly... it wasn't overly important.

Now, however, threat is coming more from actual attacks. I know currently threat isn't a big issue... I typically lead my DPSers by quite a large margin on fights. The exception being my DWing DK who has no threat reduction talents and easily pulls 4k dps in Naxx 10 gear >.< He gives me a run for my money.

I guess what I'm getting at is that while threat isn't overly important right now.... I do have enough tanking stats on my gear to handle all of Naxx 10 (I only do 10 man raids or heroics. 25 mans can go die in a fire), so I feel that contributing more to the overall DPS isn't such a bad thing. My healers are having no trouble keeping me up... so why not?

Yet, I consistantly see Hit Rating spoken poorly of on these boards. I know that for DPSers, capping hit is their very first goal.... As it affords the largest increase in DPS. Far more than any other single stat. Does that not apply to our TPS as well? I would think so. So why the bad Rap on Hit Rating? It effects most of our threat maneuvers (Hammer, Judgement, Shield, melee) and helps a great deal with our new Hand of Reckoning (yay for having 2 taunts that now can't miss. Or seemingly so...) Yet, I consistantly see STR favored over hit... even when I know damn well that people aren't hit capped.

So, is there something I'm missing with Hit rating? Why STR or threat to gloves over hit rating? Why str to weapon over a weapon chain? Why not a hit gem here and there over a STR gem?

Is it really so bad to meet the hit cap? Am I sacrificing too much for it? I don't think so... But others disagree. Am I "Doing it wrong" as they say?

Adorah
Alterac Mountains, US Realms.

P.S. Fairly certain I logged in tanking gear if anyone feels the need to armory me.

There was a thread about this a while back; pretty sure the conclusion was that yes, it is fairly important but we don't need hit as badly as a Warrior.

Is this you? http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... s&n=Adorah

If so 216 hit is pretty solid for a tank with your gear, I have about this much hit as well and I don't notice any issues.

We have a few abilities that are not affected by hit rating, so it tends to be less effective than strength which pretty much works with everything and provides a little mitigation to boot.

Hit rating is not a bad stat, but it is also not the most efficient stat for increasing our threat. Therefore, when you are looking for more threat and have a choice, like you do with enchants/sockets, then hit is often passed over.

Gear is usually a little different because a piece with hit often has similar amount of strength as other pieces at the same ilevel. At the gear level, hit is often traded for mitigation stats, so in that case it's a pretty decent way of increasing threat.

The reason Tankadins often don't care much about hit is that from a threat perspective it's simply not as good point-for-point as Strength. The main argument for hit is in consistency, especially for taunting, but with 2 taunts now and multiple moves available for snap aggro even the consistency argument is debatable and largely a matter of preference.

Summary:
Str > hit for sustained Tankadin TPS
Some Tankadins still like hit for consistency in landing opening attacks

It's also important to point out that Hit is the 2nd best threat stat (per point) after strength and is a good deal ahead of anything else. So even though you probably don't want to sacrifice strength for it, don't get the idea that hit is a "bad" threat stat for paladins.

Vioarr wrote:
Is this you? http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... s&n=Adorah

Probably. Can't get to armory at work (shocked that this place works, but so much the better). But yeah, I think after my racial I'm 0.01 % off of hit cap.

So if I'm understanding right. From a threat perspective, I'd be better off picking up gear with hit rating (like the bolstered leg plates and the shoulders from... Patchwerk10 I think?), rather than enchanting for hit rating? The enchants and gems (think I have one hit gem) Should be reserved then for STR.... Though I think I'll keep my Icewalker enchant >.> Stam to boots doesn't much interest me and run speed is unnecessary since I'm always raiding with the aforementioned Unholy DK.

double post >.<

Honestly, the only hit rating that we actually need will come from our gear. A lot of the non-tier pieces in Naxx carries a fair bit of hit rating on it - I'm sure that if you built a set and only kept the 2pc T7 bonus for the 10% HoR damage boost, you could get fairly close to being hit capped.

As said before, 216 HR is pretty solid. If you've got 200+ HR, you shouldn't worry at all. Hell, I'd even say that 150+ HR is good enough.

Jasari wrote:It's also important to point out that Hit is the 2nd best threat stat (per point) after strength and is a good deal ahead of anything else. So even though you probably don't want to sacrifice strength for it, don't get the idea that hit is a "bad" threat stat for paladins.

Pretty sure BV is better for threat point for point than hit. Maybe not tps but for dps hit might win but then hit has no mitigation.

adorah wrote:Though I think I'll keep my Icewalker enchant >.> Stam to boots doesn't much interest me and run speed is unnecessary since I'm always raiding with the aforementioned Unholy DK.

You'd be better off enchanting stam to your boots and replacing a stam gem with a str gem I believe. Double check the spreadsheet to be sure.

Majiben wrote:

Jasari wrote:It's also important to point out that Hit is the 2nd best threat stat (per point) after strength and is a good deal ahead of anything else. So even though you probably don't want to sacrifice strength for it, don't get the idea that hit is a "bad" threat stat for paladins.

Pretty sure BV is better for threat point for point than hit. Maybe not tps but for dps hit might win but then hit has no mitigation.

Not according to the spreadsheet here: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... hp?t=20085

Point for point hit is far better than BV.

But yes, in terms of mitigation, hit does nothing.

Jasari wrote:

Majiben wrote:

Jasari wrote:It's also important to point out that Hit is the 2nd best threat stat (per point) after strength and is a good deal ahead of anything else. So even though you probably don't want to sacrifice strength for it, don't get the idea that hit is a "bad" threat stat for paladins.

Pretty sure BV is better for threat point for point than hit. Maybe not tps but for dps hit might win but then hit has no mitigation.

Not according to the spreadsheet here: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... hp?t=20085

Point for point hit is far better than BV.

But yes, in terms of mitigation, hit does nothing.

I think you're confused. According to that spread sheet, hit barely won with 10 hit (10 i points) providing .24 more tps than 15.4 BV (10 i points) out of 20.03 increase. That was with the preloaded gearset. The preset gearset seems to be top of the line threat gear too considering that it use the DMC:G and has over 2.1k str. Basically when looking at the best case scenario for hit it barely, barely eecks out a win and provides no mitigation.

The data is not there for any meaningful discussion of hit and expertise versus strength. Psiven's data and the data from the dps spreadsheet are totally different. No-one appears to be calculating the effect of hit or expertise on tps/dps, based on first principles and the effects that they have, especially at top-end gear levels.

This is primarily because hit/espertise have a multiplicative effect as STR and crit increase, as opposed to a linear increase (which makes hit and expertise much more valuable at high levels of gear than at low levels of gear). When people say misleading things like "Pretty sure BV is better for threat point for point than hit." drives me crazy as it's totally wrong depending on your level of gear.

Expertise only appears to matter for white damage (standard dodge/parry caps as for warriors) and HotR (which "deflects" and no-one seems to know what the cap for deflect is).

Judgement appears to be on the ranged melee hit table (instead of spell hit) and as such can't be dodged or parried, but can be resisted.

Holy shield appears to use the spell hit cap.

Consecrate appears to be in its own world and not based on spell hit.

Threat does matter quite a lot in movement-oriented fights (Sarth 3d) and other fights where your dps is top-grade (top end mages in particular) like Malygos with 2 sparks up. It's probably going to matter a lot in 3.1 and Uludar as well, so if we could nail down the exact relationship between hit (in particular) and expertise (for HotR) that would be great. Until then, we are just speculating without anything to back up our opinions.

But Dorvan, pally tanks never miss opening attacks. . .

On another note, in light if recent events I have decided to add a little bit more hit to my gear. Missing 3 attacks on opening in a row is deadly to your dps warriors who decide to throw at the boss.

Dorvan wrote:The reason Tankadins often don't care much about hit is that from a threat perspective it's simply not as good point-for-point as Strength. The main argument for hit is in consistency, especially for taunting, but with 2 taunts now and multiple moves available for snap aggro even the consistency argument is debatable and largely a matter of preference.

Summary:
Str > hit for sustained Tankadin TPS
Some Tankadins still like hit for consistency in landing opening attacks

Metrech wrote:This is primarily because hit/expertise have a multiplicative effect as STR and crit increase, as opposed to a linear increase (which makes hit and expertise much more valuable at high levels of gear than at low levels of gear). When people say misleading things like "Pretty sure BV is better for threat point for point than hit." drives me crazy as it's totally wrong depending on your level of gear.

Str, BV and Ap are not linear increases either. They scale with hit, crit and expertise just as hit, crit, and expertise scale with str, Ap, and BV. They form a limited feedback loop. The data in the tps spreadsheet comes with a very high threat set, with hit still being show as unfavorable for max tps. The 190 average str used from the DMC:G is unreasonable in a progression tanking scenario as a survival trinket will be preferable in almost all cases but it does provide very useful information, that is that it should account for the additional str from going up at least 13 ilvls. This shows reasonably that hit will still not be a prime stat for sustained tps in the next tier and will not conclusively pass up BV for pure threat till about a mix of T9 10 man and 25 man gear. This is entirely in line with what I expected from this stat, that is to say that it will be less than stellar for at least the first two tiers of raiding and might become reasonable in the third tier. One thing to consider is given the current trend in gear (which may or may not continue) we will be hit capped before that.

I can said with utmost confidence that hit is not a good threat stat in T7 and will likely continue to be 3rd rate in T8.