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Maintankadin

Reckoning's Value

Typhoeus
Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:31 am

Reckoning's Value

This post is a (minor) attempt to try and address the issue of Reckoning's value to a tank in lieu of the coming 2.3 changes to WE, i.e. that many people will be dropping Reckoning in order to place points into Combat Expertise.


Assumptions

- Single Mob only. I looked at these numbers using a single Mob with a Swing timer of 3.0.

- Reckoing Procs do not overlap; Each proc gives one full, distinct Reckoning where all 4 charges are used.

- 100% of all player melee attacks land on the mob as Regular Hits. Thus the mob did not Dodge or Parry nor did the player land Critical Strikes or Glancing Blows.

- Player Weapon Speed is assumed to be 2.3, and the player weapon DPS (plus strength modifier) was set to 87.9. (My current DPS using the LC Gavel)

- Player +Spell Dmg was set at + 300.

- Only (Rank 9) SoR is used and is active for all player swings. SoR Spell Dmg Coefficient is assumed to be 9.2% / 1.0 1-h weapon speed, and the dmg for the SoR base was set to be its maximum value of 91 yielding 154.48 dmg/swg (SoR base + (2.3)*(.092)*(Spell dmg) )

- Reckoning is assumed to taken at 5/5 talents giving a 10% proc rate upon damage received.

- The only source of damaging toward the player is via the mob's melee strikes.

- Fight Duration was assumed to be 15 minutes (900 seconds).

- Threat from white damage is set at 1:1, and Threat from Holy damage is 1:1.9, i.e. Imp Righteous Fury is active.

Results

Given the (player) swing timer of 2.3, the probability of Reckoning Procing such that a 4 Hit reckoning occurs (P4) ~= .39, and that of a 3 hit Proc (P3) ~= .41.

- Mob Total Swings = 300
- Player Pure Avoidance (PA) = 0%.
- Probable # of Reck Procs (PRP) = 30
- Reckoning Procs per Minute (RPPM) = 2
- Probable #4 Hit Reck Procs (P4R) = (P4)*(PRP) = 11.73
- Probable #3 Hit REck Procs (P3R) = (P3)*(PRP) = 18.26


I will only look at the damage from the extra Reckoning attacks themselves.

- 4Hit Reck Dmg (4RD) = (DPS*Weapon Speed)*4 + 4*(SoR Dmg) = 1426.6
- 3Hit Reck Dmg (3RD) = (DPS*Weapon Speed)*3 + 3*(SoR Dmg) = 1069.95

- Cumulative Reck Damage (4 Hit) = (P4R)*(4RD) = 16747
- Cumulative Rec Damage (3 Hit) = (P3R)*(3RD) = 19538


- 4 Hit Reck Threat (4RT) = White Dmg Threat + SoR Threat = (DPS*Weapon Speed)*4 +4*(1.9)*(SoR Dmg) = 1983
- 3 Hit Reck Threat (3RT) = (DPS*Weapon Speed)*3 +3*(1.9)*(SoR Dmg) = 1487

- Cumulative 4RT = (4RT)*(P4R) = 23275.5
- Cumulative 3RT = (3RT)*(P3R) = 27154.75

- Total Reckoning Threat (TRT) = Cumulative 4RT + Cumulative 3RT = 50430.25
- TPS from Reck (RTPS) = 56.0

This establishes a baseline (0% PA) RTPS for the given player and data with a mob swing timer of 3.0. As we already know, if we increase our Pure Avoidance upward the amount that reckoning will proc decreases linearly due to less damage being taken, i.e. a 10% increase in PA yields a 10% decrease in RPPM and RTPS. From the number above:

- Delta RPPM / 10% PA Gain = -.2RPPM
- Delta RTPS / 10% PA Gain = -5.6RTPS

The point of all of this is to show that if you are fighting a mob (with 3.0 Swing timer) and the melee hits are the only source of damage, that reckoning only contributes a very small TPS given the fact that most paladin tanks can put out a TPS of 600-1000.

Periodic damage from spells or damage effects (as a specific part of a given encounter) can and do increase RPPM by a large amount. Especially if those effects are subject to a tanks PA stats.

Finding the optimal point of avoidance v.s. Reckoning's value as a talent (IMO) can't be calculated directly due to the number of varaibles spread throughout so many different encounters. As such, it will still have to be at a player's discretion on when its effect is no longer worth the cost.
Dorvan
Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:44 am
Playing Devil's Advocate, your argument would be a lot stronger if you did hand-wave to come up with the statement "Reckoning isn't a significant portion of your threat". To use a best case scenario for Reckoning, if your putting out 600 tps and 56 of that is from Reckoning then Reckoning is providing nearly 10% of your overall threat, which is pretty damn good.

Now the refutation of that point is pretty straightforward, but you should really try to present some firmer arguments about the % of your overall threat that would come from reckoning if you want to have a strong case. This is mostly about playing around with math though, I think the most compelling arguments on this issue come from actual WWS profiles.
kalbear
Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:32 am
The further refutation of this comes from a couple things:

1. Reckoning procs don't all hit. Against a 73 mob, they'll miss quite a bit unless you have other abilities, but even then they're not going to be 100%.
2. Most mobs do not only do melee.
3. Avoidance is far above 0% for any tank.

So this is the absolute best that could ever happen in theory for reckoning - about 56 TPS. Realistically, you'll lose about 15 TPS from avoidance, another 10TPS from missing with swings, and maybe another 5TPS from fighting mobs that don't exclusively hit with melee.

From actual WWS profiles, (I did this at EJ). This is on Lurker Below, which should be a fast hitting boss that triggers reckoning more than others.

Kombo
Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:34 am
opps i didnt read it correctly, you said mob swing timer Embarassed
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Joacimcans
Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:36 am
well one thing i see that you also didnt mention is the fact that with 5/5 weapon expertise is that you will also be getting dodge/parried less than if you didnt have the weapon expertise. So if you could maybe figure out some kind of math formula for the amount of more hits you will be getting from getting dodged/parried less to the amount of hits you gain from reckoning.
Worldie
Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:03 pm
To my eyes, Reckoning is now only a leveling talents. I doubt i'll again get it into my build until we got some merges in talents.
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Warrender
Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:12 pm
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Reckoning procs. But in the bloated Protection tree 2.3 gives us, something has to go. In this case, Reckoning is the one that gets voted off the island as the weakest link.
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dab
Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:46 am
Is a mob swing timer of 3 realistic ?
If you take a timer of 1.5s (maybe more realistic), you double the threat gen. If you add a SotC it is even more (although I don't know how much).

Girard
Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:52 am
Reckoning, if you're very lucky.. can give you AWESOME burst damage. .. but by that same token, you're far more likely to have average to poor luck (given the odds as you gear up).. meaning the reliability of reckoning to provided good threat slumps under 1h spec.

Not to mention, reckoning really isn't that great for secondary-tanking, 1h spec works just as well there.

Right now I have reckoning in my spec for the AoE farming aspect. But come 2.3, it's gone.
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dab
Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:17 am
What I like about reckoning is that it scales with the number of mob beating on you.
To me, taking on multiple mobs is a signature of tankadins, and thus reckoning is a talent that is really in line with the class design. That is why I am reluctant to drop it (although I will certainly do it with 2.3, but I will be sad).

I would like to see that talent buffed so it is worth again (reduce its cost to 1-3 point for example), but it may not happen, unfortunately.
Korath
Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:03 am
As I was AOE tanking SH normal a few times over the weekend (8 in total I think... No trinket) I was thinking to myself... I dont want to loose reckoning as it was procing all the time and I was doing some great dmg (1st/2nd on the meter) and as I did more and more 5mans I kept thinking how the hell am I going to be able to keep this lovely talent...

Then I did kara and I was quickly put back to... Meh its pretty useless and I'll drop it. I'm going to miss reckoning but as I'm moving more towards raids and avoidance gear its use is going away.

Shame as solo/5man its great fun.
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