Diminishing Returns Questions

So, I'm trying to set up a spreadsheet composed of epic gear that I might be interested in for my prot pally. I plan to use it to mix and match different items and determine my critable/hitable status. The critability aspect was easy enough, but I've had problems trying to determine my total % mitigation. The numbers I'm calculating for my %dodge and %parry do not match with my armory profile. I know DR now affects these values and I guess I'm not sure when to account for DR.

I found an equation in another thread at this site, but I'm not sure how accurate it is nor when when to use it. Can anyone more knowledgeable in this area offer advice? Thanks

Dodge % (after DR) = 1/(0.011347+(0.956/Dodge%))

Parry % (after DR) = 1/(0.021275+(0.956/Parry%))

Yes, but base values, i.e., base dodge, dodge from base agi, base parry, talented dodge/parry (anticipation and deflection) don't get DR. I imagine that is your problem.

Harlekin had a nice spreadsheet which calculated the additional avoidance and DR.

Here, I'm going to repost the math I did on my guild website arguing with my DK tank counterpart that dodge rating > parry rating for both of us atm. I do both his avoidance and mine, and my numbers were within 0.01% of my character sheet numbers at the time, so you can use it as a guide. Miss DR might not be correct, as harlekin has pointed out before.

Start repost:

What are you using to model DR? My understanding is that DR hits parry harder until you have almost 600 dodge rating, assuming 689 defense rating (uncrit). New science though, and I'm not sure I vouch for everyone's math. New version of RatingBuster does the comparison item by item for you with DR.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=17390&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Using the second link's item spreadsheet (page 1 of the thread) with my current armory numbers (729 def rating, 316 dodge rating, 153 parry rating, 22 agi from leg armor) we get, in addition to base avoidance (not added in and not subject to DR):

Starting additional avoidance: 25.00%
Add 10 parry rating: 25.14%
Add 10 dodge rating: 25.19%
Add 10 defense rating: 25.16%

Dodge wins

Same thing with your numbers from armory (702 def rating, 356 dodge rating, 512 parry rating, 22 agi from leg armor):

Starting additional avoidance: 29.93%
Add 10 parry rating: 30.05%
Add 10 dodge rating: 30.13%
Add 10 defense rating: 30.08%

Dodge also wins. In fact, you have so much parry rating you get 0.2% avoidance from 10 dodge rating and 0.12% from 10 parry rating, so the ratio for you is almost 2 to 1.

I'm curious about total avoidance, so let's add it up. I'm pretty sure base parry/miss is 5% for both classes, and this is not affected by DR.

Deflection and Anticipation are 5% dodge and 5% parry for me, Anticipation and Blade Barrier are 5% dodge and 10% parry for you.

Base agility for paladins is 92, 114 for DKs at level 80, not affected by DR

For me: (92)*0.0192 = 1.77%
For you: (114)*0.0136 = 1.55%

Base dodge for DKs is 3.46%, 3.27% for paladins, not affected by DR.

Adding it all up we have:
Me:
Miss = 5% (base)+ 4.37% (def with DR) = 9.37%
Dodge = 5% (Anticipation) + 1.77% (base agi) + 3.27% (base dodge) + 12.85% (ratings affected by DR) = 22.89%
Parry = 5% (base) + 5% (Deflection) + 7.87% (ratings affected by DR) = 17.87%

Total avoidance: 50.13%

You:
Miss = 5% (base)+ 4.16% (def with DR) = 9.16%
Dodge = 5% (Anticipation) + 1.55% (base agi) + 3.46% (base dodge) + 13.36% (ratings affected by DR) = 23.37%
Parry = 5% (base) + 10% (Blade Barrier) + 12.41% (ratings affected by DR) = 27.41%

Total avoidance: 59.94% with Blade Barrier up

This is vs. a level 80 mob, it will be slightly less vs. level 83. My final dodge and parry % agree within 0.01% with my character sheet values, and that small discrepancy is probably due to the fact the spreadsheet uses defense rating as if it translated into avoidance directly, when in fact it is converted to defense skill and rounded off first. I didn't compare yours because you have your fishing pole equipped, but it would be a good reality check.

So dodge rating > parry rating. If you have a different source on DR I'd like to see it.

-Jand
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When I use those 2 equations, I get more dodge and parry after DR.

If the numbers from the equations are correct, however, the equations would then look like this

Dodge % (before DR) = 1/(0.011347+(0.956/Dodge%[after DR]))

Parry % (before DR) = 1/(0.021275+(0.956/Parry%[after DR]))

The numbers still dont seem right though.
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Warning, sig may be out of date.

It seems with small amounts of defense, dodge, parry (really low, less than 100) you actual gain additional avoidance from DR. That could be what has you hung up.
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I made a port to exodar. My friend proceeds to MD Alar onto the AFK tank, and we both run. People ran with us, until the port, and realised it was to exodar. Only three of us went through. Turns out people would rather die than go to exodar. -Infurnus

Thanks for the link Janduin. It helped me figure out the formula.

For anyone still confused, here's how I did it. Breakdown your dodge into two categories: 1) base 2) bonus. Base is not affected by DR but bonus is.

Base = 3.27% (base) + 1.77% (92/52.084 [base agility/dodge via agility]) + 5% talents = 10.04%

Bonus = (Dodge% from additional agility) + (Dodge% from Defense) + (Dodge% from Dodge Rating)

Now use the equation Dodge% after DR = 1/(0.011347+(0.956/Bonus))

Add 10.04% + Dodge% after DR = your total Dodge % after DR

The main problem I had was not recognizing paladin's base Dodge% is 3.27% and not 5%

Thanks for the clarification. Though, are you sure that dodge from agility doesn't get affected by diminishing returns? I thought it did, from readings elsewhere on Maintankadin. (I can't find the link, sadly)

Is it that dodge from agility still adds into the "bonus" dodge, and thus affects DR on dodge /rating/, or does the dodge from agi also get affected by the DR?

Now: to write a "calculate your true avoidance/block with X,Y,Z ratings" tool.

racial dodge for agility is unaffected by DR just like racial dodge chance isn't affected. Any additional dodge from agility suffers DR.
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I made a port to exodar. My friend proceeds to MD Alar onto the AFK tank, and we both run. People ran with us, until the port, and realised it was to exodar. Only three of us went through. Turns out people would rather die than go to exodar. -Infurnus

Anybody have the following data before I recreate it. Really I just want it for theory since you won'd do this in game but I'd like to find the cross over numbers where adding dodge becomes diminished to the point where it becomes better to start adding parry. I want a big table to graph it out but I figure if somebody already has this done why reinvent the wheel.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=17390

It mostly focuses on Def V Dodge but also has a link to an excell sheet that can be used to determine when parry is a good option (almost never but I'll let the data speak for itself).
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I made a port to exodar. My friend proceeds to MD Alar onto the AFK tank, and we both run. People ran with us, until the port, and realised it was to exodar. Only three of us went through. Turns out people would rather die than go to exodar. -Infurnus

Thanks, I'll take a look when I get home.