So, 3.2 specs

Nadir wrote:15 seconds of -20% damage reduction and a 100% heal on a 11 min CD. It's a tanking cooldown. We'll see in 3.2 if it'll be necessary for hard mode encounters.

20% physical damage reduction. It's not really changing.

If you find it necessary for hardmode encounters NOW, then you may not after the patch. If you don't find it necessary now, then you certainly won't after the patch.

My question is on the CD, do players really wait 11 min between hardmode attempts? That just seems like such a long time to wait until your tank's CD is available again. But I think Shaman have 10 min with BL/Hero, so that seems in line with current expectations... it just seems long, 5-mintes I could go with, but 11 minutes is a while.

5min cd on BL/heroism, 10min debuff, and a wipe gets rid of the debuff. Most 25 mans have more than 1 shaman anyway

Regarding JoL, if that's the case, then i guess judgements just got a whole lot more boring.

I tried Imp LoH spec when 3.1 first came, and tbh it's just not worth it, there's too many wasted points to pick it up, and the CD is indeed very long.

The problems with paladins, and in some cases druids, in general is stopping the trees overlapping for PvP.. you also need to make sure all of the powerful abilities for the 3 different roles are found high up in the talent trees which makes it seem like a lot of our talent options are pre-chosen and there's not much room for variation. This is precisely why resto druids in pvp are such a nightmare, or they were at 70 and any twink level. Simple reason being that with PvP gear and resto spec, they can make the use of the huge survivability of the heals and then soak up the hits with the innate tanking properties of bearform. Paladins are currently suffering a similar problem, where from a pvp standpoint the combining their 3 specs makes them overpowered, which leads to the implementation of disjointed talents that feel like they are there just to make up the numbers to get to the higher tiers.

Nadir wrote:15 seconds of -20% damage reduction and a 100% heal on a 11 min CD. It's a tanking cooldown. We'll see in 3.2 if it'll be necessary for hard mode encounters.

its only phsyical damage, and of all the hard modes in ulduar, the big shots that you need to chain cd's for are not physical, only thorim really has a physical damage, and 11 min cd is a bit long to be reliably used

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbu ... Mhb:GjpcMm

I'm now much used to Salvation Glyph, i don't see why disregarding another controllable cooldown.

I'm going with 2/2 SA because if there's any other Vezax-Like fight, or fight where i can't abuse DP or Sanctuary, i want full mana.
Plus, i don't like not full talent points anyway.
PoJ, cause PoJ is just too good.
Vindication, obviously.

Pretty standard for the rest.

Worldie wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMGsIufdxfMhb:GjpcMm

I'm now much used to Salvation Glyph, i don't see why disregarding another controllable cooldown.

I'm going with 2/2 SA because if there's any other Vezax-Like fight, or fight where i can't abuse DP or Sanctuary, i want full mana.
Plus, i don't like not full talent points anyway.
PoJ, cause PoJ is just too good.
Vindication, obviously.

Pretty standard for the rest.

I basically agree with this, except I have points in Imp HoJ over your last two points in Conviction and Glyph of AS over Glyph of SoV.

moduspwnens wrote:

Worldie wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMGsIufdxfMhb:GjpcMm

I'm now much used to Salvation Glyph, i don't see why disregarding another controllable cooldown.

I'm going with 2/2 SA because if there's any other Vezax-Like fight, or fight where i can't abuse DP or Sanctuary, i want full mana.
Plus, i don't like not full talent points anyway.
PoJ, cause PoJ is just too good.
Vindication, obviously.

Pretty standard for the rest.

I basically agree with this, except I have points in Imp HoJ over your last two points in Conviction and Glyph of AS over Glyph of SoV.

I basically disagree with him, because he put 3/3 conviction instead of 1/3 conviction 2/3 crusade. Also, Glyph of SoV > Glyph of AS to me. Especially if the SoV change sticks.

Elsie wrote:

moduspwnens wrote:

Worldie wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMGsIufdxfMhb:GjpcMm

I'm now much used to Salvation Glyph, i don't see why disregarding another controllable cooldown.

I'm going with 2/2 SA because if there's any other Vezax-Like fight, or fight where i can't abuse DP or Sanctuary, i want full mana.
Plus, i don't like not full talent points anyway.
PoJ, cause PoJ is just too good.
Vindication, obviously.

Pretty standard for the rest.

I basically agree with this, except I have points in Imp HoJ over your last two points in Conviction and Glyph of AS over Glyph of SoV.

I basically disagree with him, because he put 3/3 conviction instead of 1/3 conviction 2/3 crusade. Also, Glyph of SoV > Glyph of AS to me. Especially if the SoV change sticks.

I find it strange that people will post about this sort of thing, when the conclusive information is right up thar in the stickies. Now, I may be overstepping here a little; there could be a specific reason for taking glyph avenger's shield over SoV, but it is by no means the best threat choice. I am going to agree that movement speed increases are very useful for tanking, but in my opinion, they aren't "just too good". My reasoning is that as a tank, I still spend most of my time standing still, and Vezax can be easily kited without any movement speed increases if your reaction time is good. That being said, I spec it now and might still spec it after 3.2 if I find the enchant lacking.

assuming reckoning is decent for threat with the new change to SoV, i'll be running this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tA0urusIufdxfMobc:pjGcVm

i spec for threat as there's like, zero threat stats on my gear so it is necessary for the few fights where it's an issue. basically the only change from my current spec and this one is 2 points from conviction moved to vindication and 2 points from imp HoJ moved to reckoning. either way, i'm expecting a decent threat increase so i may spec into imp LoH if that's the case.

Ascendant wrote:I find it strange that people will post about this sort of thing, when the conclusive information is right up thar in the stickies. Now, I may be overstepping here a little; there could be a specific reason for taking glyph avenger's shield over SoV, but it is by no means the best threat choice. I am going to agree that movement speed increases are very useful for tanking, but in my opinion, they aren't "just too good". My reasoning is that as a tank, I still spend most of my time standing still, and Vezax can be easily kited without any movement speed increases if your reaction time is good. That being said, I spec it now and might still spec it after 3.2 if I find the enchant lacking.

It all depends. You don't pick up the Glyph of AS because you think it'll be higher sustained TPS. As you said, that is clearly in the stickies. What I realize is that the times that I have problems "sustaining TPS" are very few in number, and usually solved more easily by doing other things (or General). Meanwhile, on virtually every boss pull, my raid knows that as long as that shield throw hits, they can absolutely unload. If it crits, I can practically go make a sandwich. Threat, at least at this point, is significantly more valuable to me on the pull than it is when my HotR isn't parried on down the line when it doesn't really matter anyway. It makes working with other tanks easier, too. Things may change with the new SoV changes, but for now I'm using the AS glyph.

moduspwnens wrote:
I basically agree with this, except I have points in Imp HoJ over your last two points in Conviction and Glyph of AS over Glyph of SoV.

I'd consider AS Glyph depending on what the Coliseum looks like to be honest. If there's places where i need to pickup multiple adds i'd rather have my multitarget AS.

Crit (convinction) might still be more valuable than a flat 2% damage, expecially if the new SoV damage can crit.

modus, i dont take imp HoJ simply cause for once i got a guild with competent interrupters. Before, i used to always have it.

Also, Ignis, Razorscale, Yogg Saronn, Thorim, Kologarn, Mimiron disagree with running speed not being useful, and we also don't yet know what will happen in the Coliseum.

Worldie wrote:Crit (convinction) might still be more valuable than a flat 2% damage, expecially if the new SoV damage can crit.

No, for Prot I can 100% guarantee that 2% damage is worth more than 2% crit. Why? For Prot, crits are an extra 100% damage. That means that if 100% of our damage could crit and we had 0% base damage, it would be a 2% damage boost, as follows:

100 (base) * 1.02 (crusade) = 102
100 (base) + .02 * 100 (crit damage) = 102

now what if we have 10% base crit? now our calculation look like:

(100 (base) + .1 * 100 (crit damage)) * 1.02 (Crusade) = 112.2
100 (base) + .12 * 100 (crit damage) = 112

So already we see that 2% damage pulls ahead of 2% crit. Factor in the fact that some of our damage cannot crit, while all of it is boosted by the 2% damage jump, and crit falls further and further behind. Stated generally, 2% crit can *never* be more than 2% damage when crit damage is only a 100% boost.

Worldie wrote:modus, i dont take imp HoJ simply cause for once i got a guild with competent interrupters. Before, i used to always have it.

My guild interrupts, but it's still nice for trash. /shrug

Dorvan wrote:

Worldie wrote:Crit (convinction) might still be more valuable than a flat 2% damage, expecially if the new SoV damage can crit.

No, for Prot I can 100% guarantee that 2% damage is worth more than 2% crit. Why? For Prot, crits are an extra 100% damage. That means that if 100% of our damage could crit and we had 0% base damage, it would be a 2% damage boost, as follows:

100 (base) * 1.02 (crusade) = 102
100 (base) + .02 * 100 (crit damage) = 102

now what if we have 10% base crit? now our calculation look like:

(100 (base) + .1 * 100 (crit damage)) * 1.02 (Crusade) = 112.2
100 (base) + .12 * 100 (crit damage) = 112

So already we see that 2% damage pulls ahead of 2% crit. Factor in the fact that some of our damage cannot crit, while all of it is boosted by the 2% damage jump, and crit falls further and further behind. Stated generally, 2% crit can *never* be more than 2% damage when crit damage is only a 100% boost.

So you are telling me to get the 21 agi 3% crit dam meta gem

Worldie wrote:So you are telling me to get the 21 agi 3% crit dam meta gem

If you want to sacrifice mitigation, sure. But he wasn't talking about mitigation vs threat, he was comparing two threat stats.

Worldie wrote:So you are telling me to get the 21 agi 3% crit dam meta gem

Still wouldn't be nearly enough to tip the balance.