AD Changes and Pally MTs

Dalithe

Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:43 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

You mind linking the post you read that is different than what I posted? Silly me and copy and pasting from patch notes, I must have messed that up. I do that sometimes I get confused.

Tanking GV isn't hard with a 2 min cooldown. It requires teamwork from your healers or paladins in raid, just like Sarth3D did. The only class that hasn't tanked (and killed) GV in 25 man yet for our guild is the DK tank. First kill was warrior, second/third kill was me (with 4k less stamina then). Now we generally use a Druid to tank because the DK's always get squished or threat is a huge issue.

Ascendant

Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:44 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Tomyris wrote:My question remains: is this the change that we need to bring us into parity with (or even place us ahead of) other tanks in challenging encounters? It feels good to me, but I haven't had the experience of holding Vezax static through Surges or any other current fights where a Pally MT is considered a liability.

this is something I am worried about as well. this change really doesn't resemble or function much like an extra CD. instead we get an effect health increase and a passive guardian spirit effect. In a situation where you would be killed more than once over in a small period of time (hodir, mimiron p1), this doesn't work out too well. on the other hand, we have fights like thorim and council. for thorim hard mode specifically, this talent works perfectly. the real "tank killer" is his unbalancing strike, which will get absorbed by the 2 minute effect, then you can use divine prot for the next cycle.

anyway, with a new tier of content coming out, specific boss analysis is pointless, though the situations that call for cool downs probably won't change, since (as far as we know) their encounter design philosophy isn't changing in 3.2

Dantriges

Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:52 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Most seem to think it´s overpowered. Splug calculated that our EH raises by 10,5% or so, if it´s only damage below 35% that gets reduced, raising it to the Blood DK levels with Blood going down a fair bit. If it´s not, its overpowered as hell and someone bribed the chiefdeveloper or hit him with a bat.

Also WotN in his unnerfed version is cited as the overpowered example of this ability. IIRC the complete hit was reduced, not only the part below 35%. I was 15% reduction and considered to be too imba.

I would say, it would put us on parity. The Blood Dk got quite a lot of Eh from armor, life and better avoidance. He also had two cooldowns for all kinds of damage and one against magic on low duration cds.

We still have one and now Ardent Defender. Cheat Death once is nice, very nice but if the situation is hairy, it will get you out of trouble once. Last Stand or Survival Instincts give you health for a longer time, when you need it. Ardent Defender is not Last Stand probably, as it also provides a needed EH increase. It seems to me that Blizz thinks that the lack of a second cooldown with a longer duration and he need for more EH justifies the overpowered looking nature of Ardent Defender in its new shape with cheat death thrown in.

I agree with Splug that the nerf bat for the dk class is big. Losing IBF, armor, health all in one go seems like Blizz is overnerfing a fair bit.

Ascendant

Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:52 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Dalithe wrote:You mind linking the post you read that is different than what I posted? Silly me and copy and pasting from patch notes, I must have messed that up. I do that sometimes I get confused.

hmmm. You are right, you did quote it correctly. It appears the thing I found wrong was your interpretation of "at or below 35%". It really doesn't matter though, with blizzards history of misguiding tooltips and patch notes, it could very well be what you are saying.

Kuridan

Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:59 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Dread wrote:The way the changes are currently worded, it's very possible that it could be overpowered now. Any big hit that would bring you under 35% (the scariest types of burst damage) will now be affected with no current word of an internal cooldown on the damage reduction. I'd say that alone is pretty significant even before you consider it also will have a passive, baked-in Guardian Spirit type effect.

Overall I'm very excited but a little worried about the changes announced. I expect "clarification" (ie NERF) before it goes live.

It clearly says there is a 2 minute cooldown

Rehlachs

Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:08 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Kuridan wrote:It clearly says there is a 2 minute cooldown

reduction-thingy != Guardian Spirit-thingy

Tomyris

Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:09 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

To expand upon Rehlachs' comment, everybody realizes that there's a CD on the Cheat Death component.

I'm virtually certain Dread was referring to the passive mitigation function on AD. The internal CD could function like Commendation of Kael'thas, giving you an AD "proc" when the threshold is triggered, but then going on CD so that it doesn't fire on every single attack that could possibly reduce you below 35% HP.

Dread

Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:33 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Rehlachs wrote:reduction-thingy != Guardian Spirit-thingy

This. The 2 minute cooldown refers to the Guardian Spirit/Cheat Death proc, not the damage reduction on hits that would bring us below 35%.

Oryann

Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:35 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Dalithe wrote:That is overpowered, insanely so. Will they change it? I don't know. This patch has me so excited though...so going with Murphy's Law on this one.

This means they are going to revert argent defender to how it used to work and take away our bubble wall lol.

defeated

Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:28 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Considering the changes to AD, it seems that Blood Draining would be a viable enchant for us finally. no?

I know many think its worthless, but fights like "I choose you Steelbreaker" could come in handy for an extra bit of help from heals, considering your always getting hit low, like 30% or lower since he hits like 2 trains, a football team, an atom bomb, AND chuck norris.

gregorian

Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:00 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

At first glance the AD mechanic upgrade appeared to be ridiculously overpowered. Consider a 100hp tank with this new AD. Any attack that does 65dmg or more will be reduced by 30%, in effect it is a mini shieldwall for almost all landed hits in a progression encounter (vez/thor hards, etc). Considering any of such encounters, prot pallies will have the 30% dmg reduction up all the time. Also note that it would take a whopping 143dmg to one-shot this tank simply because he had 5 points in a talent.

Of course it's too good to be true. It also took me awhile to realise that it made more sense that only the damage taken beyond the 35% mark would be reduced. This is a well deserved change for a talent that became obsolete the day that bosses started hitting for half our hp. Now consider a 100hp tank taking 100dmg. AD would be responsible for taking 35dmg out of this lump and reduce it to 24.5, and the prot pally eats a total of 89.5dmg. The good news is that we now have a built in last stand that has NO COOLDOWN (hopefully). And this last stand works out to create an effective health of 1/(1-0.3)*35+65=115% (not 110.5 as someone mentioned). and this 15% hp bonus is now active ALL THE TIME much like a souped up frost presence. Not comparable to warriors 30% or glyphed bear @45%, but again, it is available at all times and for all cases.

As for the inbuilt GS, pallies can now cycle this with bubblewall for effectively 1cd every minute, assuming you are only using cds to survive one big incoming hit (council/thorim hards).

IMO they shouldnt nerf DKs' IBF if they are buffing pallies.

gibborim

Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:44 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Dantriges wrote:Most seem to think it´s overpowered. Splug calculated that our EH raises by 10,5% or so, if it´s only damage below 35% that gets reduced, raising it to the Blood DK levels with Blood going down a fair bit.

I must be missing some component of the calculation. It looks like a clear 15% in hp/EH to me. Assuming it only kicks in on damage past the 35% mark. It takes 65% of your hp in damage to get from 100% to 35%, it takes 35%/.7 = 50% of your hp in damage to get from 35% to 0%.

65%+50% = 115%

In any case, the new AD can't possibly make it to live in the current form without a bare minimum of an ICD on the damage mitigation effect. I'm willing to say that Blizz will not be giving us a 15% (or better) increase in health.

Expect major rewording, an ICD, loss of cheat death, or a straight numbers nerf once this is actually in play on the PTR. If you think that will not happen, all I have to say to you is /facepalm.

Tomyris

Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:48 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

gregorian wrote:IMO they shouldnt nerf DKs' IBF if they are buffing pallies.

I disagree pretty strongly with this. DKs will maintain Anti-Magic Shell—a tremendous CD on many current bosses and likely many future bosses as well—in addition to their talented CDs. There's no way that IBF on a 1 minute CD is appropriate for achieving any sort of parity between the tanking classes, unless DKs are designed to lean heavily upon that crutch. They're clearly not, and the other nerfs to DKs are merely intended to bring their stats down to earth rather than cripple them.

gibborim wrote:Expect major rewording, an ICD, loss of cheat death, or a straight numbers nerf once this is actually in play on the PTR. If you think that will happen, all I have to say to you is /facepalm.

We shall see. I, for one, do not believe the change places us head and shoulders above any other class, nor does it strike me as being nearly as overpowered as IBF was before 3.2. Stranger things have made it onto live, my friend.

gibborim

Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:06 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Tomyris wrote:
gibborim wrote:Expect major rewording, an ICD, loss of cheat death, or a straight numbers nerf once this is actually in play on the PTR. If you think that will happen, all I have to say to you is /facepalm.

We shall see. I, for one, do not believe the change places us head and shoulders above any other class, nor does it strike me as being nearly as overpowered as IBF was before 3.2. Stranger things have made it onto live, my friend.

Tomyris

Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:12 am

Re: AD Changes and Pally MTs

Thanks, Patrick Stewart is my hero.