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Maintankadin

Trouble Gaining the Title of Maintank.

Spite
Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:31 am

Re: Trouble Gaining the Title of Maintank.

Let me just give you some advise, take it for what it is. I am the GM of a high end guild that progresses well, is very organized and seen well on our server. I am not trying to boast, just trying to illustrate my crediability. So I suppose I'll give you the inside of how I myself pick my Tanks for our core raiding group. When accepting a current or applying tank in my guild for a raid position I always have held higher expectations from them overall. From adaptation, attendance, tolerance and being able to keep there cool with wipes and learning curves, to multi-roling (a well skilled tank is essential and is just understood, I don't believe I need to list it). A solid warrior tank does no good for our raid synergy if he/she cannot dps in arms/fury for the life of them. A pally tank who cannot heal or dps in off specs is also not very diverse. I suppose this will come more into play when duel-specs are incorporated. But essentially if you are more marketably to your GM or RL by being proficient in your class overall, and are a team player you will most likely get your shot at the position you are trying to achieve. Now I am not making any judgements on you based on your thread, because they would only be speculations and for all we know you are just venting to us and you might not even express any of this in game with your actual guild. But the thing that will set you apart from the rest, even the current "main tank" will fall down into a few categories for me:

Loyalty= The ability to know that you will be everything that I expect of you and not desert our guild when either something doesn't go your way or we might have a break period with raiding due to a number of events from just a holiday or the loss of core raiders(w/e the reason). Being faithful in the guild and my leadership and direction. Knowing and enforcing guild policies and accepting decisions made by your officer/GM core. Leading by example for all guild members to see. Putting your own wants second for the guilds overall goals.

Initiative= Always being prepared. Picking up the slack when needed. Never being late and always being able to fill in multiply roles. For ex: its a one tank fight and we are having some issues with healing. You go ahead and volunteer to go respec to holy for the cause of the one encounter if it means we will down the boss, even if in your mind the glory of it would be MTing the encounter. You asking to do that for the raid at the situation before I would even have to ask you would be brownie points for you. I would see you as an asset, not a one trick pony.

Attitude= Finally one of the most important. This is a game, but at the same time its a hobby like any other. We spend alot of time researching gear, raiding etc. So you being late, you whining or complaining, causing any type of guild disruption will never get you anything you want, and will put you in bad standings with me. When that happens you will have to work to get that respect back. Intill then don't be suprised if you get into a raid. All the other things I spoke of are trivial in comparison if you are lacking this. The best example of a good guild and raid attitude is a warrior OT i have in my guild. He joined our guild about 4 months b4 expac when we were clearing BT. I had 2 deticated warrior OTs and I was the pally MT. These two tanks worked well with me and we all utilized our strengths on different fights as in who would MT or OT etc. The tank group was very close and had great comradery. So back to the orignal point. This 4th tank was very patient and helping, jumped in once in a blue moon when one of the tanks could not make it, but basically sat back and watched the action from the social tab. He never complained, he never had gripes because he understood. This being said I spoke with him and any other potential players who wanted to tank in the expac. He went above and beyond, leveled to 80 quickly, crafted his gear and ran heriocs to become as geared as possible for naxx. He impressed me with his detication and determination for his position, he worked hard to get it, it was not expected from his end.

So essentially this is just a basic concept of what I feel a MT or core tank should possess. Getting upset over your guilds decisions might just be a factor of your overall attitude and if not that then maybe something else. Maybe you just need to re-evalute yourself as well, maybe your missing something or theres some issue why the GM doesn't recognize you for that position I don't know. But I wish you luck and hope it works out for you. I had an issue with guild leadership of a previous guild with its structure and leadership along with a few other core raiders. So after communicating our concerns and issues and having nothing done afterwards, I just built my own guild with our views Smile . Maybe not always the worse idea either if you are not satisfied. But being a GM and MT is a full time job in its own if you want your guild to be successful.

One last thing. There are alot of smart people on these forums unlike wow forums with good advise and expierence. If you don't take the time or care what I have to say thats ok. But don't brush off all the ideas and rebuttals people have posted here.

vschiano2008
Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:57 am
TL:DR ^^

I dont have a problem not being the main tank at all. I just want the WoW community to recognize that paladins are capable of being a guild's main tank.

And re: shitadin, his aggro IS a problem when he STILL has mages and warlocks up his omen-ass. It's a continuation of TBC all over again- i pulled healing aggro off him during intensive boss fights through BT progression as a priest. any DPS can pump out 1600 TPS if they try hard enough.. raid leader being a healer just doesnt notice and thinks his DPS'ers are just really good to have to hold back.

and i dont care what anyone says, Holy shield should have 100% uptime regardless.. especially when you have 530 defense and insist on using dual stam trinkets and gemming for stam.
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dmok
Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:01 am
Experience, loyalty and credibility go a long way.

One thing I noticed is you have not stated how long either of you have been in the guild. Has the warrior been taking for them since way back at the start of TBC? Earlier than that?

Raids like to stick to what they're familiar with. Run raids with the same tanks for a while and suddenly you get into a flow. When x happens, 95% of the raid knows that the tank will do y *everytime*. This reason alone is most often the only limiting factor to "pushing" out the normal tank for someone else.

Personally, my main used to be a hunter. I joined up with my current guild about 2 months into TBC, and raided on my hunter for over 75% of it. Once we got to Hyjal, faith and reliability in our paladin tank was wanning, so I levelled one as a backup incase he could not be there. When I got to 70, did I want to be the MT? Hell yeah I did. But everyone was used to the other paladin for the pally niche fights, so we stuck to him and I had no problem with it. I understood. But whenever he wasn't there, I jumped in and proved I could do his job just as well. 2 months of him missing 1/2 our raids (woo casual guild raiding 2 nights a week) I outgeared him and had gained the faith and loyalty of over 75% of our raiding members as a tank. I am still generally behind our warrior tank who has been reliable for longer than I have on my pally, but we have an understanding and rotate through on boss fights.

Just wait your turn, mention you would like to be given a chance and suggest to the other tank "hey, why don't you take it easy this fight. I'll tank this dude, and you can take the next". When you get your chance, jump at it. Make sure you are prepared, and do your damn best. If you do things well (especially when things start to go wrong) you will gain this faith and loyalty fast and hard.



tl;dr you are a tanking team. Sure there may be the slightly more "go-to" guy, but he can't look nearly as good without you there. Suggest a tank rotation between the bosses where it makes sense, and make sure you are prepared for anything and everything. Prove your worth when given a chance. Complaining and bitching gets you nowhere.
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Talwen
Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:18 am
I completely agree about reliability and attitude being crucial for the tanking team... but what to do when the idea of rotating who tanks isn't accepted by your raid leader? As an example, in every single fight that has adds of any kind, I am assigned to be the add tank while our warrior tanks the boss. I think our raid leader really believes that it's just harder for warriors to pick up adds, even if there are only one or two at a time. Is it wrong that I don't want to be just an add tank forever?
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Falibard
Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:53 am
Here's what I can say, and it's a bit of a reiteration of things mentioned before. Know the fight mechanics. If you can't bother to research and eloquently explain why you're the right tank for the job, then why should they bother to use you for anything more than an add tank?

If you know a boss has a fast attack speed (i.e. Patchwerk) then just explain that Holy Shield is a better defensive mechanic because of charges, blah blah blah. ( you get the drift Wink )

It's hard to defy sound logic. If your raid is adverse to logic, you may want to look elsewhere.
crazyflanger
Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:13 am
Why not sit tight as off tank, collect gear. Hopefully your guild will let you both /roll on upgrade items. If not, leave. Once you have a stack of epics branch out with your own raids taking along other guildies who arent in the main crew...or join/start another guild.

You would be amazed on how ez a MT can find a guild if they have good gear.
Subject
Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:53 am
For players that have been around for a while they have the mentality of "Warrior = Tank" as for pretty much 2 expansions that's how it went for an MT position where off-tanks were Paladins and Feral Druids.

Fortunately for me I was the Raid Leader of my previous guild and pretty much when I decided I wanted to be prot, I started MTing what I could and I worked on gearing up for it. I played all 3 specs in TBC and MTed Kael'thas for our 2nd and 3rd kill and Illidan after our 4th kill (which I MTed on a Protection Warrior for the 1st 4kills).

However speak to them, if they aren't willing to give you a shot (as I don't know your experience with them and how long you've been with em and same goes for the Warrior) you may wanna consider moving elsewhere.

As someone stated earlier, its a trust thing as well consider heavily running 5mans with guildies so you can attempt to impress them with your survivability, TPS, DPS and overall knowledge. My 2 Healers have been with me for 3 years from our previous raiding guild and I assume they feel comfortable with me.
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Regretful - Female Blood Elf Paladin of Mannoroth
Subject - Male Human Paladin of Arthas (Sold Pre-2.4)
Spite
Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:54 am
reliability is key here. When I have a tank in guild who has been tanking (whether OT or MT) for a long time, i don't mean a couple weeks but has been in my guild for almost a year tanking. Has been reliable and consistent with his tanking ability and all the above mentioned I ask you, why would a GM/RL switch out that person only because you want to tank. Tanks are the backbone of the raid, they have alot of stress on there shoulders and most of the time have a thankless job when ppl are posting dps meters etc. It takes a certain type of personality to fill that role. Arrogance, impatience and intolerance is what makes guild leading difficult and as much as that RL might want to give you a shot, he might burn bridges with that current MT. You have to sell yourself in a way so that the whole raid prefers you as a MT, not just the RL. This will give you the edge. A good way to start is to follow directions, add tank for now or OT w/e. Run heroics with different in guild groups, get to know people. Hint to them your intentions, what you would like to do and build friendships, basically network within the guild. Before you know it things might change.
lilpete
Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:11 pm
if your raid leader cant see that your the better tank, after showing him/her your EH and the war EH then they shouldnt be raid leading. also is the war a higher rank in the guild? had he been around longer? has he done more for the guild in the past? all these things go into choosing the title of MT. now if your raid leader doesnt understand that some fights are better for pallys some for war some for DK and others for Druids then again they shouldnt be leading your raids.

talk to your raid leader and guild leader, if they dont listen maybe u should find another guild if you really wanna MT (i know i did so i found an up and coming guild to get in at the ground level)
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Kalakaua
Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:52 pm
Who the hell wants to be a main tank anyway? The add tank is much more fun and dynamic. Main tank just stands there and hits a 1-button macro for most encounters.

Seriously though, too many tanks have "main tank" syndrome. Use whatever tank is best for the role. Certain mechanics make some tanks better for fights than others. For example, since I have pursuit of justice in my tank build, I was tanking anub'rekhan in Naxx-10 because just running away was easier and simpler than setting up some kind of warrior intervene thing.