Mana Management and not using resources.

So tonight I tanked a blood furnance for some experience both tanking and on my bar (I got a little tired of questing) and I enter a group with three hunters, a shaman healer, and of course me. I gave everyone the proper blessing, blessing of Salvation and I carefully adressed everyone to target a specific monster, then move to the next one. I used all the raid marks, I did everything right... or so it seems.


The problems:

-I didn't manage my mana right.
I started at 65-70% and just tanked it, some people were on a time crunch and needed to down the instance fast. So I picked up the pace, I ran out of mana, and lost my aggro for a bit.

-Two of my hunters were idiots.
Gauged at about 12 years old. They constantly did not DPS well, they kept taking of Blessing of Salvation and one of them forgot food for his pet and drinks. They were immature and hardly, if ever did their job.

And to prove it... Here is the DPS meter at the end of the run.



I am Oniyoh on the top. We wiped twice. Once when a rouge got pulled (with four other mobs.) and another time when technicians silenced our healer.



I asked the healer ( who was the only mature person with the exception of Zap.) What I could have done better. And she said I should have managed my mana more effitively, and used my resources ( didn't ask for traps through the run.)


So my questions are: How do you manage mana more effectively. What are some ways. Do you ask for traps or any other form of CC? Where these two hunters idiots?
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Oniyoh- level 66- Lightbringer

I find it really hard to call anyone an idiot in a PUG the majority of the time. You never know what their expectations and/or playstyle before the PUG was. They may actually be 12 years old and their usual group may give them constant commands and they may actually play good that way. It's sometimes hard to do your job if you don't know what it is exactly.

If you want to call those guys huntards you also shouldn't be posting how you ran out of manna and lost aggro! They may think your the idiot and want a warrior tank in their next PUG.

To answer your last questions make sure you have a threat mod up if you don't already. If you can't keep threat pace with a certain palyer let them know it and explain how mana is your threat. If your trying to keep threat pace with someone who doesn't understand how a Paladin tanks you will go OOM sooooo much faster.

Yea I ask for traps and CC when I Paly tank because lots of players might be afraid to CC because they see Paly tanks ripping mages a new one everytime they try to sheep into our concecration, but they might not understand the other types of CC that are ok.

There's really not a lot to work with re: the hunters. Yes, forgetting food for pet and drink for self is just absurdly retarded, BUT if they'd been out questing and didn't get a chance to restock because they didn't notice? It's been known to happen (personally, I still think it's absurdly retarded, but that's just me). By what do you gauge "not dps well"?

I almost always instance with the same shadow priest who likes to give me grief. Any damage meter you look at will show me consistently outdpsing her. But then, that's also because I have been known to ask her to heal me for any number of reasons. That doesn't mean she doesn't dps well.

You don't mention what spec these hunters are; perhaps it's irrelevant. You mention that they didn't do their jobs. What, precisely, WERE their jobs? Was someone supposed to be on healer protection, just in case? Was one supposed to burn any runners? Or was it an all out AoE Trap 'n Volley Fest?

Now, to answer your questions...

Were the two hunters idiots? Maybe. I don't have enough info to make a judgement call on that.

Do I ask for traps or any other form of CC? Hell no. In fact, I tend to deliberately break CC if I see it.

I manage mana by remembering that mana = more threat for me. I don't care if someone is in a time crunch, I take the time to mana up. It's really not that long at all, and it gives your healer a chance to mana up too. In most fights, I also tend to judge Wisdom on the mob, and then up either SoV or - if my mana is running low - SoW again. I don't mind taking damage, because that means that my heals will return mana to me via SA. If I have to mana pot....then I have to mana pot. I'll deal with it.

To handle threat (and not having the energy to go look you up on the armory), make sure you have Imp Righteous Fury, and that's up at all times. I also tend to run with Retribution Aura and Blessing of Sanctuary on. Lots of passive threat happiness there. Tell your group to not do anything until you're actively engaging the mobs; you might indicate that this is after a Judgement and a Consecration, or whatever. The more you get hit, the more threat you generate from the passive happiness.

If you give someone a specific Blessing, make sure they understand why, especially if they object. I had a dpsadin in Durnholde the other day who kept turning his Salvation off. I just kept putting it back on, until he finally got the hint. If all else fails, let them tank the mob they peel from you, or give them the Iron Boot of Idiocy.

And finally, as Azzinoth indicated, make sure you have yourself a threat meter. If you get a regular group together you always run with, pester them to get it. It makes life so much happier.
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Worry not, my friend.

God, I still remember those times when I tanked normal ramparts at lvl 60-62, always top of the damage meters, and the DPS'ers going "oh, wow, ure good!".

I never used any CC and had no aggro problems whatsoever, though I was a "bit" undergeared tank wearing some spelldmg plate to get extra aggro and mana from heals
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Theorycraft is the last thing that is gonna help you kill a boss. Yes i will get 20 dps more or tank will get 20 TPS more, but that doesn't kill bosses, playing smart and good while being ready to improvise is what does the job.

Still happens to me in PUGs. Due to mobs going down really quickly, I can't judge anything but Rightneousness. I go BoSanct->BoWis despite the threat loss, switch Def->Retri aura so I take more dmg (hence more SA), downrank Cons so I can at least outthreat the healer. Sometimes still isn't enough, & at this point I just grit my teeth & bear it through.

When appropriate-level hunters are out-DPSed by the appropriate-level tank, something is definitely wrong. But apparently you were making up for them quite well. Don't think they needed your BoSalv. If you're putting out so much threat, really no need to go full tilt on spending mana.

In other words ... relax You're doing good.
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Are you down with OPPaly ?

If you're doing Blood Furnace at the appropriate level, CC is a Very Important thing. Consecrate isn't doing massive damage at that level, you're still getting a lot of threat from holy shield and SoR/JoR, and you're going to be taking a fair amount of damage from everything. CC is very good.

Specifically blood furnace, as the technicians absolutely obliterate your aggro thanks to those silences. Two technicians will likely cause a wipe or at least one death thanks to either you losing aggro on one and it going nuts, or simply being chain silenced at a bad time and having other mobs go nuts.

DPS and damage are both poor ways to measure success. At the end of the night, the only thing that matters is how the instance went. Did you meet your goals? Did you wipe? Did it take too long?

Some tips on managing mana:
healing totems don't return mana back from healing. If you're using a shaman healing, you're going to have to ask for some big heals here and there. Same goes for some druid totems, etc.
Get used to drinking on every other pull. It's just what you have to do when you're not taking massive damage, and at that level you can't afford to take massive damage because the healing isn't there yet. To save some time, mark while drinking.
Judge wisdom. Heck, some times seal wisdom. Even bless wisdom.
Ask your shaman for mana totems instead of healing totems.

These responses are great guys!

Quote:

I find it really hard to call anyone an idiot in a PUG the majority of the time. You never know what their expectations and/or playstyle before the PUG was. They may actually be 12 years old and their usual group may give them constant commands and they may actually play good that way. It's sometimes hard to do your job if you don't know what it is exactly. If you want to call those guys huntards you also shouldn't be posting how you ran out of manna and lost aggro! They may think your the idiot and want a warrior tank in their next PUG.

That's the thing with PuGs I have no clue who I am with, so I stick to my rules and I usally tank fine. Sure, I have had my fair share of fun groups (Like when we thought it would be cool to use nothing but raid warning to communicate, and be drunk throughout a whole instance) to groups that have just caused me terrible headaches (Like a Ramparts I ran when I first hit outland and out shadow preist, acted as our healer and thought he was a clothie tank.) But for the most part, I am flexible with most people.

These two hunters, really, pushed it. I would have kicked them if the healer hadn't told me she needed to finish up the instance. The way they acted showed something down in the teens, and their playstyle, meh, I have grouped with a few good hunters. I know a little bit what to look for.

And about the post, I am obviously going to adress my weaknesses. I am not so arrogant as to say that it was all the hunters fault. No, a good deal of it was my fault, and if you don't think I should be asking fellow paladin tanks, what I can do to be better. Then why are you here?

And really, I don't care too much what they think about me. So they take a warrior, let them be his headache. Good riddance is all I can say.


I have a threat mod, but thank you for reminding me about it.

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You don't mention what spec these hunters are; perhaps it's irrelevant. You mention that they didn't do their jobs. What, precisely, WERE their jobs? Was someone supposed to be on healer protection, just in case? Was one supposed to burn any runners? Or was it an all out AoE Trap 'n Volley Fest?

Two of them were beast mastery one was a marksman. There jobs were pretty straight foward "Kill what I mark in the order in which I said to mark" It was skull, circle, then star. I added in triangle if there wa s afour man pull. I also asked simple request such as "I am going to pillar pull these guys so the runners don't accidently aggro, stay back and wait here until I bring them around then fire" Instead they waited at the entrance to the next room and as soon as I pulled they sent in their pets and fired at the skull...

Another good example is when we got to the Fel Annilators, now I heard somewhere that they had a 25 yard charge range, so I figured I would at least try to see if I could prevent their charge. So I simple told the hunters "Use your 35+ yard range and fire at these guys. They do a charge that drops aggro and makes a real mess of things. Stay back, and just shoot."

Instead... they run ten yard away after I pull an engage and the whole chargeing mess begins.

As for the blessings, I explain several times to them. "Salv, reduces the threat you produce and makes it easier for me to grab aggro, protecting you." "I don't care" "Stop clicking it off" "I don't need it!"

I am going to try the idea of letting me build up aggro next time. Afte ra concecrate and a judgement. Sounds good.

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Worry not, my friend. God, I still remember those times when I tanked normal ramparts at lvl 60-62, always top of the damage meters, and the DPS'ers going "oh, wow, ure good!". I never used any CC and had no aggro problems whatsoever, though I was a "bit" undergeared tank wearing some spelldmg plate to get extra aggro and mana from heals

Oh good, I didn't want to have to resort to warrior tactics just yet.

Quote:

When appropriate-level hunters are out-DPSed by the appropriate-level tank, something is definitely wrong. But apparently you were making up for them quite well. Don't think they needed your BoSalv. If you're putting out so much threat, really no need to go full tilt on spending mana.

That is good to know, and now I get to have a chuckle saying "I out DPSed hunters!" more or less a joke with my hunter friends.

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Some tips on managing mana: healing totems don't return mana back from healing. If you're using a shaman healing, you're going to have to ask for some big heals here and there. Same goes for some druid totems, etc. Get used to drinking on every other pull. It's just what you have to do when you're not taking massive damage, and at that level you can't afford to take massive damage because the healing isn't there yet. To save some time, mark while drinking. Judge wisdom. Heck, some times seal wisdom. Even bless wisdom. Ask your shaman for mana totems instead of healing totems.

Thank you!

I never knew that healing from the totem didn't affect my mana. I kept wondering why I was not getting back alot of mana. Or even a decent amount (I have rank two spritual attunement after all.) And you know the shaman healer was telling me most of her healing was done with totems and lesser heals, with a few big heals. That probably explains alot.








As for those technicians. Anyone have tips agaist them, or any enemy for that matter that silences. What I am thinking is always making sure my essentials are up (SoR and Holy Sheild.) Works well for me , if I can get it times right. Any other suggestions?


And thank you all again for this advice.
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Oniyoh- level 66- Lightbringer

Mage's sheeps are the way to go, sheeping even one of the technicians can make a big difference (especially on heroic). However you dont "need cc" in there.

My guess is the following, as I did the same thing for a while -

Your spamming consecration and judgements hard. This is draining all of your mana too fast (and upping your dps).

I think part of the reason you are top DPS is simply because you are overusing your abilitys. I had a similer situation at that level where I would OOM fast, but topped the meters.

Keep an eye on your threat meter. You dont need to have 64k threat on a trash mob when the healer has 3k. Sure blowing ur mana and doing some damage speeds up the run, but remember you don't have to win the threat race by miles, you just have to stay on top.
Ultimately your there to tank, not dps, so try not to spend ur mana if you dont have to.

So I would stop consecration, or downrank it - when you are well ahead on threat.

Eventually you will outgear instances and have a spell damage set you can use for ultimate dps ownage (and to pound on the consecration) (My spell damage set has me at roughly +600sd, 8k mana, and I take plenty of damage, Maintank set = +300sd, 5k mana, and in a normal instance take next to nothing in damage) - you should see normal SL with SD gear, I can pretty much chain pull the whole time.

However at your level you will probably be wearing mostly warrior gear for the mitigation and stamina, so mana is a big issue.

Ultimately if you have to drink between pulls thats fine, if the hunters moan about you drinking, tell them to do some real dps and to use their mana too.

Eck Hunters + salv = bad attitude.

I had an overzealous hunter demand might off me last nite in heroic bot. Now I know he can FD and dump threat but i simply didn't trust him.

Lol...talk about whining! He wouldn't shutup. I almost felt the urge to explain that if he pulled the boss off me, by not FD'ing in time, it would stun the healer in warpsplinters thunderclap, but hey...I gave him my usual response.

"If you want might, go find a healbot, im a pallytank, nuff said"

- For the technicians - Silence them first, or make sure your consecration is down before they get to you (and hence silence you).

Use your hammer of justice to stun them, if your a BE use Arcane Torrent as soon as they get to you, or a dps interrupt (silenceing shot, counterspell, kick etc)
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Me - http://amanthul-us.warcrafter.net/Laeda

Plain and simple, tell your healer to only heal you and himself if need be... (unless you're facing a boss like murmur who does AoE damage).

When i run non-heroics my dps either kills if they pulls or knows how to dump threat. I down-rank concecration to 4, use minimum rank holy sheild, and avengers shield. Always judge wisdom, use blessing of sanc and ret aura.. And I use vengeance as my damage seal, only judging if there are more than 4 stacks or the dps catches up.

Other things to consider, spell damage enchants, wizard oil, spell damage food, adepts elixer and greater intellect for 5 mans.

As for your group, dps is a dime a dozen... consult with your healer, /pkick and replace.
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Currently lvl 70, Prot Spec'd again ;p

A nifty way of looking at BoSalv (which I learned here), is that it is basically a 30% boost to DPS, IF the person can put out that much damage & watch their threat. It'll save the time/energy or mana spent on a rogue Feinting or a hunter using Feign Death. For a warlock, or even a mage, it's a very noticable boost in their breathing room, you could call it, on DPSing.

Personal experience here: I've had mages that go nuts with Salv on, like popping Pyroblast as soon I drop Consecration, & them using PoM for another one. D: On normal pulls, this'll mean me slapping on a JoR quick, but on bosses, it scares me. So, make sure you remember to remind them that even with the 30% reduction, you still need to be careful.
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"Walk softly, & carry a big glowing hammer."

If the tank dies, it's the healers fault.
If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault.
If the dps dies, it's their own fault.

I just hit outlands myself on my pally, and so far have tanked BF twice. I was a little low and undergeared for it probably, so there were wipes, but we finished both times. I used rogue saps first time and mage sheeps second time to CC casters or technicians. The groups weren't always good about waiting for me to LOS casters... ah well.

I was top of DPS in every single instance I ran until 70. Don't worry. They'll catch up.
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