DPS? Srsly?

I have a question about my role in Heroic 5-mans, and how to gear and efficiently play to the benefit of the group.

I'm asking for my starting-Kara geared tank alt, as my main is a Balance druid almost done with Kara. I recently have been absorbed into a very casual, but very fast, highly geared and very supportive guild. I have 12K hp unbuffed and am working toward badge gear, so I jump on opportunities to go to Heroics.

The group was this: Holy Priest, Feral Druid, Mace Rogue, and ...a Protection Warrior. They took me along, because they know I'm after 75 badges. But I am new, and while I can suggest that maaaaybe I should be the one tanking, the 4 were on autopilot following the Prot Warrior's marks and strategies. I was expected to do DPS.

I don't think I've ever been DPS on Aertho.

So, with no idea of how to use my abilities to maximum efficiency when healing is well covered, and tanking is being done by someone who's passionate about it, I turned RF off, slapped on my spell damage gear and kept Light up and wacked away with stacks of Vengeance. With a 1H.

When we got to the Black Stalker, it was a VERY close near-wipe, and while I did what I could, I don't think I did all I should.

Now, while I don't think I should respec, as I still tank plenty with different compositions, but if I find myself in groups like the above, how do I play best? ...at least until I build rapport with my new teammates to bully the prot tank to the side with his own 2H.

You're alliance? Huh. If you were horde I'd recommend getting the biggest 2h you could and going to town with SoB. But you're not. Instead, you're going to either have to off heal while DPSing (I'd recommend judging wisdom, not light, so you can get back some mana and give it to the group), take on any adds, and otherwise do a lot of seal/judge/consecrate when you can.

There's really not a lot else you can do; pally DPS while prot is horrible unless you're doing a lot of adds at once, and even then it's bad. You're mana inefficient, you have weak spellcaster weapons and you won't be getting heals. It's just lame.

keep on your RF even if your not in ur full tanking get up, better the tank loses agro to you than someone else.
secondly theres nothing wrong with using two tanks in place of an extra CC or something.
I will usually put on more SD and MP5 and Int and just help out with cleanses, heals a little aoe damage and some off tanking.

That all being said you should tell them that a tankadin is most useful as a tank where as a warrior or druid should shut up and dps since they arent as good as a tankadin at tanking.
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Well yeah, that's the thing. The feral was cat, and was ready to bearform to pick up if necessary. They both had a lot more hp than me, and my footing with the guild is such that I'm not yet one of their leaders in any capacity. That may change in time, but until then: if I find myself in a strange DPS position again...

You're suggesting high mp5 and big, slow 2H? I thiiiink I have a +spelldmg Warmaul of the Arcatraz in the bank...

The best way to DPS as a prot pally imo is to be the one tanking. I've swapped gear completely for Ret-friendly gear (albeit poor gear compared to my tanking gear) and I was hardly breaking the Warrior tanks DPS. Keeping a 1H-Shield is really better I would think, though I've not done any comprehensive teasting. Itemizing for spell-damage, mana, and possibly mp/5. Without the benefits to attack power a retribution pally gets, and with a laughable amount of crit that a prot-pally will have, I can see no reason to swap to a 2h and try to push up larger white numbers. That being said, with a group like that I'd be willing to bet that the warrior's DPS could probably surpass your DPS, merely because of the itemization/play-style difference.

When I am pushed into that position, I usually Wis/Light bot, throw in cleanses, and act as an additional CC (tanking a mob is really just another form of crowd control, as pointed out above.) I don't even pretend to do passable DPS, and play to my strengths instead. If a group doesn't expect me to tank I'll usually just go on my mage, as I just don't have fun auto-attacking and keeping up light/wis .
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ya throwing out the light or wisdom judgements is also useful but honestly you are never gonna be able to provide any kind of useful damage whatsoever without being the tank and anyone who doesnt understand that isnt paying attention.

you can be helpful but not for damage. if they say provide additional damage tell them no. its not worth losing your dignity in a dungeon whackin away for 80 white damage per hit. off heal/off tank cleanse period. your not a DD

edit: put on ur best tanking gear and steal away all the agro and dont let them get it back. if they cant get agro off you then you are the better tank. teach them that lesson its always fun;]
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Ok. One more time.

The parameters are this:
1. I'm not tanking.
2. I'm not healing.
3. I'm with great people who I'd like to continue working with, so pedantry is out.
4. I'm OT on trash, ofc, and using my tank gear to be a good crowd control when necessary.

...on bosses, and Bog Lords, or single pulls, or whatever...

Do I just stack Vengeances, Cleanse, Flash Heal, and ride it out? Or is there something else I should be doing? Probably not, but I thought I'd ask.

take it easy aertho, u did what u could, think about it this way..what if today u have full t4 tanking gear and a protection warrior with just normal instance gera goes along with u to a 5man heroic? u tank and he dps of course, but then how much dps can a full protection warrior put out? not much...so the important thing is that u guys finished as it is..i think for 5man instance...u shouldn't ever bring 2 protection pally or warrior, ferral druid is exception 'cause they CAN dps. it' like u don't usually bring 2 full healing spec healer for a 5man instance..so..take it easy.

I found myself in almost an identical situation in Uldamn last week while lvling. I'm new in the guild so i didn't want to make waves and there were at least two guildiess in our pug run.


Unfortunately it seems that playing the Judge/Cleanse/Vengance game is your/our only option.

Never before have i felt more useless in a group and i hope it never happens again. But in your situation it seems that like you said you will just have to ride it out untill the warrior will step aside with a 2h and whack away.
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*WARNING! Highly Susceptible to Flameage!*

Asking to tank is not being pedantic. The fact that they're bringing you along for badges is very, very kind of them, but why not produce two separate groups running heroics and allow 5 additional people (4 dpsers, a healer) to gather badges as well? I fear you may soon run into a very different problem. If you are not being considered an acceptable tank for heroic content, it's entirely possible that may be extended to other content as well. Forgive me for making the assumption, but you stated yourself that it's an "auto-pilot" response.

Frankly, if you'd like to maximize your DPS you will in turn mitigate some of your group benefit. Judge Crusader, Vengeance seems acceptable, but perhaps SoR would provide better returns on trash (I'm horde and thus have no experience with SoV). This may be an excellent time to practice seal-twisting and maintaining a 5-stack of Vengeance, with as much SoR weapon uptime as possible, switching to Vengeance again only to maintain the stack. Again, I'm not sure how this works so you're on your own there.

In this scenario I wouldn't do much more than Cleanse. Frankly, your healer should be able to handle themselves, and your mana consumption will likely not be supported by your gear, even in a high spell-damage/high int set. Likewise, I'd consider trying to squeeze out as much as you can. Go for a more traditional caster weapon with higher spell-damage but lower stamina, swap out rings, trinkets, neck pieces, EVERYTHING. If you're not expected to tank, then there should be no expectation to tank (it sounds obvious, but our "high-threat" sets are sometimes our spell-damage sets, and they really shouldn't be the same in a situation like this.) Libram of Zeal is worth picking up if you haven't already as well as maybe a caster shield. As I stated in my original post, I'm not sure whether or not the Spell-damage 2h or the Sword/Board will produce more damage output, though I recommend you make use of 1H-Weapon Specialization. Finally don't forget AW, it should really be up every pull it's available.
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Eh, I wasn't mad cerealkiller. I was just a bit dismayed that the only answer I seemed to be receiving was "Just tank. Tell them to move aside, or steal it."

The fact that I was a new recruit to an efficient guild seemed ignored. Whether they think I'm a good tank today is moot if I'm their friend and teammate tomorrow. They're helping me get better. Plus, they already know I'm a good tank. They know the Feral's a good tank too.

Thanks JacobHC... I had completely forgotten to use AW. I normally use it to add dynamite to my initial threat lead, so I'd forgotten that it can be used without RF, lol.

I guess rolling on caster rings isn't such a bad move if that's the case, as I'm pretty much a mage in plate. And yeah, Vengeance twisting is something I'm working on, even in tanking attack cycles, so dropping Righteousness while Light is up and Vengeance is stacked is fun, but I'm wary about going from a 1.8 speed Mana Wrath to a 3.5 speed 2H, and whether that will affect the process. It may not, as Judgments are outside the weapon swing timer, correct?

I was kinda in this situation once. We were doing Karazhan for fun, and my friend warrior tank kept telling me to stop offer to heal for fights I wouldn't be tanking on. He wanted me to just chill and DPS. He actually said to me "whatever, just dps in tank gear, if something freaky happens and I get instagibbed when he lands, tank it!" So on Nightbane, I literally just hung out with melee and DPSed in my tanking gear (woo woo spell damage) and kept wisdom up on the mob, judging/sealing righteousness (with my 10% +dmg to righteousness libram on) until my mana got to a low number, then just meleed with sealed and judged wisdom until I got comfortable, consecrated and AW/hammer of wrath/Captain america shielded to my hearts content.

With a ret pally in my group I actually wasn't last in damage either =D

If I were you, I'd honestly just be like "my dps will probably be poor as I won't be getting much mana back, but I'll do my best" and just keep doing what you're doing. I switched up to vengeance once in a while as it IS more damage, but it's unreliable and annoying when the stacks wear off =P
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That's the other thing - if you're planning on doing DPS, you should be wearing as much spelldamage gear as you can get. You should have a decent spelldamage set already. Your weapon doesn't need to have it (especially if it's a big 2H) but all your other gear should have oodles of it.

Honestly, I doubt you'll have the mana to do SoV/SoR twisting. Judgments happen outside the GCD, and you'll likely refresh your SoV a bit more reliably with a slower weapon, but at the same time it's going to cost you more mana to do so.