Lord Jaraxxus -- Too Easy?

edit: whoa, who split this into it's own thread

I've no idea what was going on. Just that after a while into the 2nd "attempt" I noticed "wait a minute, I can use my execute ability on him now, glad I flasked" and then he died.

fafhrd wrote:I've no idea what was going on. Just that after a while into the 2nd "attempt" I noticed "wait a minute, I can use my execute ability on him now, glad I flasked" and then he died.

Yeah this boss is way too easy. We one-shot him without having an understanding of the mechanics at all.

"OK 90% pop hero!"
"zomg adds ranged DPS them down"
"ow ow ow fire burnz spread out"
"EXECUTE SPAM"
"sweet tanking cloak bro"

After a few minutes of tactics explanation we one-shotted this one. Non-Heroic mode is like a joke, cant wait to see the heroic fights here.

Hiya

Just pawned him in 10 man, one shot.
Really disappointed in the fight difficulty tbh.

Btw thanks for the bits and bobs on tactics it helped.

Felkor wrote:Just pawned him in 10 man, one shot.
Really disappointed in the fight difficulty tbh.

Can people really stop with that attitude?
Coloseeum on normal difficulty isnt suppose to be hard, its meant to be semipuggable with decent people and casuals.
The fact that they are realeasing one boss/week keeps Ulduar fresh for a bit longer.
Id like to see people say the same when they try out the heroic version.
What your doing now is the content made for casual raiding attitude and gear, ofc its not gonna be much of a challenge if your a raiding guild.

Treck wrote:

Felkor wrote:Just pawned him in 10 man, one shot.
Really disappointed in the fight difficulty tbh.

Can people really stop with that attitude?
Coloseeum on normal difficulty isnt suppose to be hard, its meant to be semipuggable with decent people and casuals.
The fact that they are realeasing one boss/week keeps Ulduar fresh for a bit longer.
Id like to see people say the same when they try out the heroic version.
What your doing now is the content made for casual raiding attitude and gear, ofc its not gonna be much of a challenge if your a raiding guild.

It's meant to be harder than ulduar normal. Also why are you faulting people for wanting actually challanging content, there is no law that says only hard modes have to at least make you pay attention to mechanics of the fight. Is it too much to ask to require myself to understand whats going on in a fight before one shotting it? You might be fine with it, and thats ok too, but don't tell people they don't have the right to want a fight that is at least on par with the last tier of difficulty.

Also it it's casual raiding not get 25 (or 10) ppl no matter how god awful they are raiding. Casual means time investment, I'm sorry but alt raids pugging this stuff the first week its out is not casual its catering to the lowest common denominator and should of had some massive retuning on the ptr.

10 man was extremely easy as said before.
Had some problems with 25man, couldnt figure out why people were dying to fel lightning...then we noticed the buff
After that it was no problem at all.

I really hope next boss will be more challening though

Treck

My post was definitely not to start a flame post.
I was just stating that the new 10 man content are a face roll and in my opinion it should not be. If you look at the gear level that drops in the 10 and 25 man normal then it should not be that easy, people worked hard to get tier 8.5 sets and that’s for nothing then.
I think that we have enough challenging content for the casual raider and it must be time for the harder raider to get some sort of satisfaction from the game again.
Yes I can agree that maybe the 10 and 25 man heroic modes might just be that and it also might not.
If I look at the game from when I started to play to what it has become then my hopes are slim. Every thing so far has been made easy and the honor of BT, SSC and others will probably be no more.
It’s the way the world works I guess were they will cater for the masses rather than the minority.

Ta
Felk

Treck wrote:

Felkor wrote:Just pawned him in 10 man, one shot.
Really disappointed in the fight difficulty tbh.

Can people really stop with that attitude?
Coloseeum on normal difficulty isnt suppose to be hard, its meant to be semipuggable with decent people and casuals.
The fact that they are realeasing one boss/week keeps Ulduar fresh for a bit longer.
Id like to see people say the same when they try out the heroic version.
What your doing now is the content made for casual raiding attitude and gear, ofc its not gonna be much of a challenge if your a raiding guild.

Whether it's meant to be puggable for super casual players or not, it drops better gear than much much harder content, so I see raids being scheduled to do it by everyone. Getting all excited about a new boss every week on one of these raids, then seeing him fall over dead is sad. The point of character progression is to make your characters stronger so they can beat the next barrier to further character progression. This very basic WoW (and MMO) principle isn't in effect here, since you don't need to have any progression in the previous tier to leap into this one.

I'm sure the hardmodes will be more challenging, and people won't complain about them like they do the normals. But the hardmodes aren't here yet, all there is available are piss easy normals that drop better gear than Yogg+0, so guess what, people will complain about them.

When i first took a look at the abilities and what they do and what kind of adds spawn i thought "Damn, this fight might be fun and interesting since it involves so many new thins that it might actually be difficult" we one shoted this with only 1 dps dieing from not moving with the flames spawning under him. We only have FL, XT and Hodir hardmodes in 25man to compare so we are a "normal level" guild with just a few easy hardmodes done.

Hardmodes will be harder, yes... but do you really think that a 25man 100% pug run should be able to kill a higher tier boss than ulduar, in less than an hour with no idea what they are doing? Did you pug ulduar that same way the same week it was out? Or even a Month after it was out? I am talking about the normal modes.

He's got a lot of abilities yes, but almost none of them affect us as tanks.
This is a VERY boring fight to tank, even the adds. (just put a druid to spam maul semi afk the whole fight on jaraxxus and zomg, 1 to 3 adds to pick up every minute or so, and /snooze a bit for the rest)
But my GM, who is probably the best healer I've ever seen, said that this was the first fight that was actually fun to heal (a lot of people need to be focushealed fast and stuff like that) so I guess it can't always be about making life on the tanks a hell.

That said, 2 shot him on 25, first time we didn't notice the buff he got (one shot our feral at 90%, I solotanked it a bit till 50% before we wiped) so just another loot pinata.

People are getting Ulduar gear from going heroics, so allrdy there they are "destroying" ulduar gear making it as good as casuals gear.
If they then award slightly better gear from seeing the new easy content, then let them see it. I doubt we will see many pugs doing the heroic version.
Blizzard keeps doing the same, when new content is out, the old content is available for everyone, "good" raiders will find themselves in even better gear, while casuals or cba raiders will find themselves in the old tier.
They dont want the massive differance so that a few guilds on the server has their raiders decked in T9 gear, while the other 80% of the server has T7 or less gear. A good player with the same gear should ofc outplay a "bad" player, ppl could basicly have all the same gear and youll still notice the differance when they are playing.

Seloei wrote:Hardmodes will be harder, yes... but do you really think that a 25man 100% pug run should be able to kill a higher tier boss than ulduar, in less than an hour with no idea what they are doing? Did you pug ulduar that same way the same week it was out? Or even a Month after it was out? I am talking about the normal modes.

People WILL be pugging Koralon, he drops +ulduar loot surely, maybe not a oneshot with no understanding of the fight.
And Flame was pugged the first week with 90% of the ppl having no clue what they were doing and oneshotting it, a few puggs the first two weeks made it past razor even, and pug attitude doesnt last longer than a few wipes.
People were however a bit busy progressing in ulduar to be pugging it on their alts.
Im not flaming anyone, i just want ppl to try and be patient, if you want hard go back to ulduar HMs, if your done with that wait a few weeks for the heroic version to come out.

fafhrd wrote:

Treck wrote:

Felkor wrote:Just pawned him in 10 man, one shot.
Really disappointed in the fight difficulty tbh.

Can people really stop with that attitude?
Coloseeum on normal difficulty isnt suppose to be hard, its meant to be semipuggable with decent people and casuals.
The fact that they are realeasing one boss/week keeps Ulduar fresh for a bit longer.
Id like to see people say the same when they try out the heroic version.
What your doing now is the content made for casual raiding attitude and gear, ofc its not gonna be much of a challenge if your a raiding guild.

Whether it's meant to be puggable for super casual players or not, it drops better gear than much much harder content, so I see raids being scheduled to do it by everyone. Getting all excited about a new boss every week on one of these raids, then seeing him fall over dead is sad. The point of character progression is to make your characters stronger so they can beat the next barrier to further character progression. This very basic WoW (and MMO) principle isn't in effect here, since you don't need to have any progression in the previous tier to leap into this one.

I'm sure the hardmodes will be more challenging, and people won't complain about them like they do the normals. But the hardmodes aren't here yet, all there is available are piss easy normals that drop better gear than Yogg+0, so guess what, people will complain about them.

I'm with Fafhrd on this one - the gear from far harder content is obsolete. Normally, this is achieved by either making the new tier more difficult, or reducing the difficulty of the current content such that the new tier is harder than the previous tier becomes. In the case of Naxx -> Ulduar, the "normal" level content was also the same item level as the previous tier's "hard" mode content. That model should have continued - ilevel 239 drops off Colloseum 25, not 240+. That, and the one-boss-per-week thing screams "Stall tactic." They really couldn't have made it any more blatant if they tried shy of saying this zone is filler content while we wait for Icecrown. I suspect that hard modes will in fact be very difficult, just to provide a solid wall for ramming into.

Jaraxxus has a lot of potential to be very difficult in hard mode. There are a lot of different things happening, and it wouldn't be hard to just ramp up the numbers to the point where they become actually threatening rather than moderately annoying. I'll openly admit I'm a terrible raid healer, and this fight was drastically easier on 10 than the beast event even. It's just too short - right when it seems like things should be getting interesting and the add spawns might start piling up if we don't make a shift for more damage to them, the boss flops over and loot pops out. With more boss/add health, this will become much more interesting.

-Splug

I think there's a few things going on, I'll list them in order of relevance.

First, Blizzard is moving away from an encounter model where the primary source of difficulty is keeping the tank alive. Tank EH will not be tested as severely in Coliseum (even on hard modes) as it was in Ulduar. Tuning in this new encounter paradigm is going to be much harder because the encounter difficulty is going to derive from having to deal with multiple things occurring at the same time.

It's harder to tune making the combination of 3-4 things the right difficulty than it is to tune a boss's damage output on a tank.

Second, Ulduar was too hard -- especially at release. I think they want the vast majority of players finishing zones on normal modes. That means a Naxx level of difficulty. If the people posting on boards like these are happy with the difficulty of normal modes, they've missed the mark. If Splug and others at his skill level are enjoying their time in normal mode, the raid is tuned too hard. Normal mode should be tuned in a way that makes the top 5% start looking around for another game to play.

Third, there needs to be a loot reset before Icecrown. The expansion cycle is so much longer than raid roster turnover rate that you need a gear reset every tier.

Normal mode raids need to be that gear reset.

Steve wrote:Third, there needs to be a loot reset before Icecrown. The expansion cycle is so much longer than raid roster turnover rate that you need a gear reset every tier.

wat