Lord Jaraxxus -- Too Easy?

Fridmarr wrote:Class balance is a factor in instance balance, it can't be removed from the equation.

I agree with this. I would say that your ability to balance classes limits how tightly you can tune instances. Class balance only matters in context. That context is how tightly tuned the instance is.

The mistake of Sunwell is that the degree of tuning demanded a degree of class balance that Blizzard simply could not deliver at the time.

The class balance was not perfect but you could do the instance without having your 10x warlocks spamming shadowbolts to beat the enrage timers or get holy priests and resto druids to heal and not fail. It took more skill but it was possible. Class balance has been poor in the past and it's not that "great" even now but they tried to fix it with wotlk but as it was said before, SWP was supposed to be the "hardest of the hard" in TBC raiding and they had taken into account the normal raiding strategys everyone was using. It was overtuned at the start but it could of been totally fixed without that gigantic nerf by a change in enrage timer/mechanics.

As for "easymode gearing of new people". Why on earth would you make an instance where the previous tier is a lot harder on normal mode, to gear up the new people. Isn't it the common idea that Tier progression means the next tier is harder than the previous tier just like the higher you get in arena rating the harder it becomes not the opposite way around? The problem with Crusaders Coliseum is that normal mode is far easier than ulduar normal mode ever was. You are literally walking in and doing an instance that is on par or easier than Naxxramas was on launch and getting a tier higher than ulduar.
While it may help to gear out your "new recruits" without having to go back to the old instance, you could also have done it by increasing the enrage timer by 1-2 minutes while keeping it in line with the "average" raiddps so that even if you bring new people to gear up you will be able to beat the fight. The way it's currently done is way too easy to be even considered a raid and there are only a handful of guilds who have cleared up to Yogg that can't grasp this fight in no more than a raidnight.

Seloei wrote:Isn't it the common idea that Tier progression means the next tier is harder than the previous tier just like the higher you get in arena rating the harder it becomes not the opposite way around?

Why would it be? Do you think the people who raided Naxx all stick around to raid Ulduar? And do you think the people who raided Ulduar all stick around to raid Coliseum?

There's massive roster turnover every 4-6 months. There's little institutional memory in most guilds. The overall skill level of these guilds does not change from the start of the expansion to the end. Why should these instances get harder if the skill level of these guilds is mainly static?

Seloei wrote:The problem with Crusaders Coliseum is that normal mode is far easier than ulduar normal mode ever was.

They missed the mark, no question. The instance is too easy. But it's not far off from where normal mode should be. Ideally though people should actually be wiping and having to suffer through some degree of learning curve. There basically is no learning curve right now. You don't really pay for mistakes in the Jaraxxus encounter as much as you should.

Steve wrote:

Seloei wrote:Isn't it the common idea that Tier progression means the next tier is harder than the previous tier just like the higher you get in arena rating the harder it becomes not the opposite way around?

Why would it be? Do you think the people who raided Naxx all stick around to raid Ulduar? And do you think the people who raided Ulduar all stick around to raid Coliseum?

There's massive roster turnover every 4-6 months. There's little institutional memory in most guilds. The overall skill level of these guilds does not change from the start of the expansion to the end. Why should these instances get harder if the skill level of these guilds is mainly static?

I guess I just don't see this massive turn over. If the majority of people don't stick around, why bother with new content at all? You've apparently got a new audience to show the same content to every 4 months, no need to make new instances. They are, after all, no harder than the old ones, so other than different graphics and sounds, what's the point? Keeping interested the handful of people who've already done the current content? Losing them can't be any worse than losing the people who already quit because the new content is boringly easy.

hoho wrote:My peak DPS was 1.45k on Brutallus after we've had farmed Twins for about a month. Locks and rogues were at 3k+, even retri pala was doind ~2.2k. World bests shadows kited out with KJ loot barely reached 1.8k on sub-3min kills. Feral tanks were around 1.5k, warriors 1.3k. Paladins were used during Felmyst flight phase and nowhere else, except occasional BT farm night. Pre-T6 shadows did decently, they were even way too high in T4. Thanks to non-existent scaling our damage didn't increase much from T4->Sunwell.

1.3k dps warrior tanks, 1.5k dps bears? That doesn't match up well with my memories of the place, but unfortunately I don't have any old parses around.

--
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona

I do think both Northrend Beasts and Jaraxxus are significantly undertuned. My biggest issue with the difficult is the ease with which we basically just zerged the two encounters with minimal to no understanding of the abilities in play. After 2 Beasts kills (and 2 10 mans kills as well), I'm not sure anyone in my raid actually has a good understanding of the mechanics, or what would be likely to be a good strategy for these if they were tuned harder. Similarily for Jaraxxus, we basically zerged the encounter, and I'm not sure we have any basis for understanding the fight that will help translate into better performance in hardmodes. Now, sure, we overgear the content already, it's tuned (theoretically) for people in Ulduar easymode gear. Fair enough. Our sponsored alt/pug raid pretty much handled the encounters the same way. The fights do not contain a penalty for failure, the 25man fights can essentially be 10-manned. You can go healer-heavy and overpower the damage mechanics. We took 6 healers to both fights, and it was already massive overkill, even while failing at basic fight mechanics.

Neither fight would actually have to be difficult, even if they actually punished failure at the mechanics in any meaningful way. Both fights could still be learned quickly even by casual groups, in my opinion, even if the fights actually included penalties for failing at mechanics. What if standing in fire wasn't something you could just heal through? What if the incinerate flesh debuff failure actually killed people? What if the poison cloud under the jormungars actually caused appreciable damage? Maybe Fel Fireball could put a tank in real danger. These are all pretty simple mechanics that one or two learning wipes would let you form a strat for. As it stands now, why bother?

If you stand still on Hodir, you'll die. If you stand in a big clump at Thorim, you'll die. If you stand in the lightning charge at Thorim, you'll die (eventually), even on easymode. If you blow up all the detonating lashers on the raid, you'll die. If you let all the trees heal at Freya, you'll get overwhelmed and die. If you stand in shock blast, or rockets, or barrage... you'll die. None of these mechanics are difficult, none of these fights are difficult anymore, they're all very well understood. But they retain mechanics that cannot be totally ignored. Naxx basically didn't punish failure, most mechanics could be completely ignored. Argent Colisseum thus far feels the same way. It's a step backwards, and I don't like it.

I'm not interested in locking people out. I'm all for letting everyone finish the content. If you're in a guild that cleared the Keepers in Ulduar, you should probably be able to get down Argent Colisseum normal, or at least go get a look at the final boss. But theere should maybe be a little bit of work involved, a little bit of a learning curve. Oneshotting bosses blind in progression with no ptr experience feels like we've been cheated of new content. At least, if the plan is to make it this easy, allow launch-day heroic mode.

--
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona

Good post Meloree

fafhrd wrote: guess I just don't see this massive turn over.

Let's assume there isn't. How much better a player are you now than when Naxx came out? You aren't any better. You've been playing since at least TBC. You got as good at this game as you're going to get skill wise in TBC. Your guild made significant Sunwell progress, which very likely means you're a damn good player.

Your skill level is static. Why should instances increase in difficulty as the expansion goes along? For which players in a guild does that make sense? The core that sticks around for 2-3 years at a time? The short timers that fill out the bottom of the roster for 2-6 months at a time?

Which players can you point to in your guild that have improved between Naxxramas and Ulduar? Do you expect these players to get even better between Ulduar and Coliseum? Coliseum and Icecrown?

Player skill tops out pretty quickly in this game. It makes little sense to have later instances demand increasing skill.

meloree wrote:Neither fight would actually have to be difficult, even if they actually punished failure at the mechanics in any meaningful way.

I disagree in terms of Northrend Beasts. My guild handled the aspects of the encounter it needed to handle correctly (and wiped 1-2 times when we did not). Tanks swapped off tanking to keep the debuff at 3 stacks. Ranged dps prioritized snobolds. Nobody stood in fire. People with bile cleaned the paralytic poison off others. People didn't get hit by Icehowl's charge. And people stayed more or less spread out the entire encounter to prevent the AoE effects from happening to too many people at once.

The mechanics were just a bit too easy to handle. Or perhaps there weren't enough of them going on at the same time. Or maybe the tanks aren't being hit hard enough to stress the healers.

Jaraxxus was a slightly different story. There were encounter mechanics my guild didn't handle correctly and we still defeated the encounter with relative ease. I think the encounter can be fixed by tuning numbers upwards a bit. Give Jaraxxus/adds more health. Make chain lightning do more damage. Perhaps let legion fires burn for the entire length of the encounter. There are enough encounter mechanics going on to cause significant stress if the numbers are tuned upwards a bit.

Why would it be? Do you think the people who raided Naxx all stick around to raid Ulduar? And do you think the people who raided Ulduar all stick around to raid Coliseum?

There's massive roster turnover every 4-6 months. There's little institutional memory in most guilds. The overall skill level of these guilds does not change from the start of the expansion to the end. Why should these instances get harder if the skill level of these guilds is mainly static?

I think you're talking about a problem with your own guild, and not with the game or the instances.
I'm sorry your guild has so much trouble holding on to people.

Let's assume there isn't. How much better a player are you now than when Naxx came out? You aren't any better. You've been playing since at least TBC. You got as good at this game as you're going to get skill wise in TBC. Your guild made significant Sunwell progress, which very likely means you're a damn good player.

Your skill level is static. Why should instances increase in difficulty as the expansion goes along? For which players in a guild does that make sense? The core that sticks around for 2-3 years at a time? The short timers that fill out the bottom of the roster for 2-6 months at a time?

Which players can you point to in your guild that have improved between Naxxramas and Ulduar? Do you expect these players to get even better between Ulduar and Coliseum? Coliseum and Icecrown?

Player skill tops out pretty quickly in this game. It makes little sense to have later instances demand increasing skill.

If you think skill level is static, I pity you. I am 100% that you are not the best player of your class/role in the entire world. I've even had the chance to see some people who actually had legitimate claims for that titles play, and I don't think a single one of them would ever tell you that skill level is static and that they had nothing left they could improve on.

edit:
Even in the context of the game, your statement doesn't make sense. You're looking at things in a very short-term view. The change in player skill as this game goes on has been massive. If you don't believe me, go look at some of the PvP videos or raid videos from naxx40 era or early BC. You see people from the best guilds or with the Grand Marshal title running around keyboard turning and franticly clicking their abilities. If this game is still going on a year or two from now I am certain that people will be looking back at videos from now and seeing us do things that seem just as stupid.

The skill level is not static by far because blizzard constantly keeps doing minor or "major" changes to each class, spells, items, encounters. You have to learn how to adapt and make the best out of the new itemization ways, spell priorities etc. Always someone will find a better spec, or a better way to gear or a better way to use the items that are dropping even if the item is not meant for you class in particular. You might someday hit the "max skill cap for the content you are in now" but due to "major content changes" occur once every 6 months the process is ongoing and will almost never finish. Higher tier raiding pushes you to strive to become even better and better. That's the point of having a harder challenge, to strive to beat it so you know there is still room to improve.

Also, i don't get it why do you feel that there should be a almost total free loot distribution system with gear resets and major easymode content. Normal mode is not meant to be where you bang your heads in for months on end to get the kill but it should not also be someplace where even pugs (and i mean, real pugs not alts from raiders) can kill the bosses before anyone explains the tactic?

Say Jaraxxus "Interupt everything, move out of fire, nuke adds". Done. That's all the tactics you need for this boss in a pug

edit: if a "mediocreville" guild is having trouble with gearing up their new recruits they should not be trying to do the newest and highest raiding zone there is but a step down the ladder to gear em up. This does not apply to the current "curve" of difficulty. Mediocre casual guilds do not take raids as serious as real raiding guilds hence why they don't progress that fast that far.

Joanadark wrote:I think you're talking about a problem with your own guild, and not with the game or the instances.
I'm sorry your guild has so much trouble holding on to people.

My experience of the game is significantly less atypical than yours. There's absolutely no question in my mind that that's the case. What guild number were you to down Yogg 0? Like 37th in the world? So please, spare me this ivory tower bullshit. Your game experience is not a typical one.

Joanadark wrote:If you think skill level is static, I pity you.

That's kind of a mean and insulting thing to say. You can keep your pity.

Joanadark wrote:I am 100% that you are not the best player of your class/role in the entire world.

I'm even more sure than that! If you've ever studied the nature of how people improve at tasks, over time people reach their maximum skill level depending on complexity of the task. I think at this point I've hit my limit and will not get appreciably better at this game going forward. I'm fairly certain that's thec ase with anyone who has played the game for 6 months. They just really won't get much better.

I love how you insult Joandark and then tell him he's too mean to you. You really need to grow up and understand the difference between criticism and an insult.

Saying that guilds keep static skill level is asinine and short-sighted. Constant turn-over in itself causes your total skill level to vary.

We have some players who have been around for a long time that just aren't on the same skill level as those that we recruit. You were right there is alot of turnover in this game, and how well you recruit and pick recruits is the determinant of your overall skill level as a guild. If your guild is keeping a static skill level then your either the worst/best guild in the world or you are just doing an average job at recruiting.

How can you say people don't get better? By doing any actually hard fight (and by this I don't mean "hard" modes that are hard in name only) you should learn something. 25 firefighter phase 4 can teach you so much if you are willing to put forth the effort to learn what is being taught. You can and should be learning things from every fight, whether its a major lesson or just a minor efficiency tweak you are having your skill level go up.

Even if what you say is true, that still doesn't make sense as why you should have equal level content on each tier. Each new tier should have a higher skill requirement until the pinnacle of wotlk. If this means that people who are very bad at this game don't get to see all content, then so be it. They are the minority, most people have the chance to see all content available to them they just choose not to invest what is necessary to see them.

From what I've seen of your last couple posts though you will see this as nothing but a personal attack and that's fine. I just hope some of the other people who read this might gain something from it. I think the mechanics of current level are greater in difficulty than previous, it's just they are so under-tuned that you can completely ignore them.

Markoh wrote:I love how you insult Joandark and then tell him he's too mean to you. You really need to grow up and understand the difference between criticism and an insult.

I'm not sure how accusing someone of being an atypically good player in an atypically good guild is an insult. The ivory tower line probably doesn't help move the discussion forward, but it's a familiar concept and expresses precisely what I feel is going on.

Pitying someone is in effect calling them pathetic. That's fairly mean and insulting in my book. I don't think I've derailed the discussion in any way by pointing it out. My post had relevant content that moved the discussion forward -- as evidenced by your cogent counterarguments.

Markoh wrote:Saying that guilds keep static skill level is asinine and short-sighted. Constant turn-over in itself causes your total skill level to vary.

This is true. But the average skill level of the average guild does not change over time. People's skills in this game top out.

Markoh wrote:You were right there is alot of turnover in this game, and how well you recruit and pick recruits is the determinant of your overall skill level as a guild. If your guild is keeping a static skill level then your either the worst/best guild in the world or you are just doing an average job at recruiting.

This is true, but I'm not sure how it relates to the point. The average guild's skill level is going to be static then, by your own admission. But I see where you are going with your argument below.

Markoh wrote:How can you say people don't get better?

People will get better at specific fights, but the rate at which they learn the new fight isn't going to improve much once they've been playing the game for a chunk of time. The hardest fight they can reliably complete is not going to change. If you make fights harder and harder, you just make it take longer and longer for these guilds to complete encounters until it gets to the point where they reach their maximum skill level and slam their heads repeatedly into an encounter they can't do.

And we know what happens then.

Now, this should and will happen. We're arguing over what point that should be happening at.

Markoh wrote:Even if what you say is true, that still doesn't make sense as why you should have equal level content on each tier. Each new tier should have a higher skill requirement until the pinnacle of wotlk. If this means that people who are very bad at this game don't get to see all content, then so be it. They are the minority, most people have the chance to see all content available to them they just choose not to invest what is necessary to see them.

All statistics I've seen indicate they are not the minority. Like 10-15% of the raiding population has downed Yogg. (Shocked?) Assuming they aren't the minority, I've addressed this topic in excruciating detail in previous posts and won't rehash my arguments here.

Markoh wrote:From what I've seen of your last couple posts though you will see this as nothing but a personal attack and that's fine. I just hope some of the other people who read this might gain something from it. I think the mechanics of current level are greater in difficulty than previous, it's just they are so under-tuned that you can completely ignore them.

I've gained something from your post. And I don't think from the nature of my previous posts you really have good reason to believe I would see this as nothing but a personal attack. I think the way I've argued in prior posts should earn me a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.

To be honest, I'm not really that emotionally invested in the argument. If you've actually run ToC, you know which way the winds are blowing. My only interest here is to explain why they are blowing that way and defend the rationale.

My very first posts in this thread were even meant to assuage the (legitimate) fears of the more skilled players that their content (Hardmodes/Achievements) is coming!

Obviously that last part went very badly.

Steve wrote:

Markoh wrote:Even if what you say is true, that still doesn't make sense as why you should have equal level content on each tier. Each new tier should have a higher skill requirement until the pinnacle of wotlk. If this means that people who are very bad at this game don't get to see all content, then so be it. They are the minority, most people have the chance to see all content available to them they just choose not to invest what is necessary to see them.

All statistics I've seen indicate they are not the minority. Like 10-15% of the raiding population has downed Yogg. (Shocked?) Assuming they aren't the minority, I've addressed this topic in excruciating detail in previous posts and won't rehash my arguments here.

And how much of the raiding population has SEEN Yogg, in either 10s or 25s? Of those who haven't, how many actually put in a level of effort to do so and are actually skillcapped before Yogg, and how many instead are content to farm Naxx, possibly on armies of alts? I know I have several friends who play this game for whom they basically cycle alts through Naxx, they probably count as "raiders" and end up deflating the percentage of guilds who've seen Yogg in statistics, but they don't really care about seeing Yogg.

I'm not sure that there should exist a right to success in this game. Collisseum is like playing with cheat codes on. If you've seen but not beaten Yogg, Colisseum normal should be tuned to be a challenge. If the hardmodes are an insurmountable wall for you, Colisseum should be a challenge. As it stands, 16 guilds on my server have beaten Yogg. 5 have made progress in hardmodes. 30 have killed Jaraxxus. Pure pugs have killed Jaraxxus. How is there a sense of well earned reward to that, from anyone? Sooner or later there has to exist a skillcap. Or should everyone with a pulse have the right to kill Arthas, with somewhere under 4 hours invested? The total time spent on my main in Colisseum thus far is under an hour, in both 10s and 25s combined, to kill both bosses, for better loot than Algalon drops. And it feels like playing with cheat codes on. I think this tuning level is a mistake.

--
Meloree, <Edge>, Garona