SoO BiS list

was working on this and made it real tidy with links and everything so id thought id share my gearing thoughts with u guys


Helm
Parry/Haste prot tier 1x meta 1x red socket Thok the Bloodthirsty
Haste/Mastery 1x meta 1x blue socket Galakras

Shoulders
Exp/Mastery 2x red socket prot tier Siegecrafter Blackfuse
Haste/Mastery 2x blue socket The Fallen Protectors

Chest
Exp/Mastery 3x red socket prot tier Sha of Pride
Haste/Mastery 3x red socket ret tier Sha of Pride


Hands
Exp/Haste 2x red prot tier socket General Nazgrim
Haste/Mastery 1x red 1x blue socket Immerseus

Legs
Haste/Mastery 2x blue 1x red socket Garrosh Hellscream

Cape
Parry/Exp/Mastery 1x red socket Legendary str tank cloak
Crit/Haste/Mastery 1x red socket Legendary str dps cloak

Belt
Haste/Mastery 1x red 1x yellow socket Iron Juggernaut
Hit/Haste 1x red 1x blue socket The Fallen Protectors

Boots
Crit/Haste 1x yellow socket Korkron Dark Shaman
Exp/Mastery 1x blue socket Malkorok

Bracers
Hit/Haste Immerseus

Rings
Haste/Exp 1 red socket Siegecrafter Blackfuse
Crit/Haste 1x red socket Spoils of Pandaria

Hit/Mastery 1 Yellow socket Korkron Dark Shaman
Exp/Mastery 1x red socket Thok the Bloodthirsty

Necky
Hit/Mastery Iron Juggernaut
Haste/Mastery AGI neck Immerseus

Weapon
1h Mace Haste/Mastery 1 red socket Siegecrafter Blackfuse
1h Sword Exp/Mastery 2x red socket Heirloom Garrosh Hellscream

Shield
Exp/Mastery 1 red socket General Nazgrim
Dodge/Mastery 2x red socket Heirloom Garrosh Hellscream

Trinkets

STR DPS Amplify with str proc trinket Thok the Bloodthirsty
TANK Stamina Cooldown reduction trinket Malkorok
STR DPS Cleave trinket with str proc Norushen
TANK Dodge Healing trinket Iron Juggernaut
TANK Stamina reduce aoe dmg on use trinket The Fallen Protectors


got to luv all that haste and mastery picked up prot 2 set with gloves/helm for now aiming for 4set with chest and shoulders

nice work. I was going to do one myself

a few notes tho.

For the boots, I consider http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105531 being a good alternative. The reforge of crit gives you a fair lot of secondary stats, and even tho crit goves us no defensive goodies, it isn't wasted that much as, it is the best DPS stat. Especially with that 50% haste trashhold. also in almost every sim I did haste is about 2 times as good as mastery. and it helps staying at the 50% trashhold and converting stats to stamina (swaping haste gems to stamgems as the haste on items increases)


Also the bracers have to be handed with care as Hit can be very nasty if you got to much of it.

With a perfect gearsetup, surely, yes. But one needs to be very lucky to get that setup and likely has other pieces with hit-rating on them which devalue the bracers. I'm really thinking about staying with
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96848 with double haste.
or http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96766 if one has access to them.

and only switching to http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105411 if your hit-rating allows it.

hmmn interesting have not thought of those boots yet however my idea is that as u seen there aint to much passive hit or exp of alot of the gear pieces also we will be replacing out feather so i doubt getting a couple pieces with hit like the bracers aint gonna be a biggie nice if anything.

as for the boots like we is gonna be capping out haste at 50% anyway so at some point we gonna want to stop and we will reach 50% for sure next tier since in current tier i am already close and with the amplify trinket and all that if things work out the way i think they will a piece like the boots could work out nicely

i could be wrong tho i dident rly count up all the stat amoungs we will be gaining and if that will be sufficient to allow for the boots lets say.

time will tell i guess

also the necky does my head in man how about this tho http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105407 its fuckin playing dirty with an agi necky but we also took and agi cloak bk in firelands even tho that was for the extra sockets but still

EDIT : ah dident read ur post correctly schroom (still early in the morning at this point ) and u make a very strong point indeed i shal add them boots !

and as I wrote. with optimal gearing -> yes there won't be a lot of Hit on the items. but you first have to get there

also I doubt you can reacht > 50% haste after having swapped every gem and enchant to something else then haste first.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105412 is also a possibility

i'd like to get something like this BiS?? optimal hit and expertise from gear and comfortably over 50% haste

Below is a link to a spreadsheet I put together.

http://i.imgur.com/wigZErW.jpg

The top section is just a simple list of gear by slot. The middle section is the stat totals for different gear lists I put together. The bottom section is one of those gear lists in more detail. I cut off the other detailed lists as I figure it would be a little much. Stats in red are ones dropped due to reforging and blue is the gain. The right hand section are stat gains through gems and their respective totals below.

As of right now my goal is the gear list I detailed at the bottom. I am always open to suggestions though. Please let me know if I jacked anything up or if you want a copy of the spreadsheet.

Have a nice day
Stumpylumps

Stumpy your sheet makes me weep with joy. HUGE thank you and one to the OP as well .

Any chance of say a google docs link or a sort by boss so I can keep track of each loot spec change as I go thru the instances. Been driving me nuts.

I made this to track my own shopping list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... wTWc#gid=0

Edit: Broke Prot/Ret into their own line-items so you can see the entire table you're rolling against, and judge whether it's worth using a coin if there's too much extraneous shit you don't want.

What about http://www.wowhead.com/item=105648

Gives you about 700 more haste compared to the spark for similar versions. Obviously the proc isn't useful.

I think it compares quite favourably to amplify which would net me around 1350 haste and 720 mastery.

It's not a bad trinket, but you're only using half the trinket, which makes it subpar on default.

Also, it's more useful to casters than it'll ever be to you, since they can use all of the stats. Therefor, you certainly shouldn't take it while any caster in your raid can still use it.

I wouldn't take it over a caster, but strength procs aren't exactly super compelling either, 14k strength is 28k attack power, somewhat insiginifcant when you can happily exceed 200k AP on normal SoO bosses.

14k strength is also a good bit of Parry.

anyone looked at http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 ?

Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17

Setokaiba wrote:

Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17

I registered here in 2009. I have been reading and keeping up with prot paladin mechanics since before I registered here. I know damn well which stats prot has valued since WotLK. Please don't try to be cutesy with me.

That said, yes, the agility neckpiece does provide better secondary stats than the strength one in general. It could be a gain as well for some sets especially if getting it would be a nice ilvl upgrade too. That does not make it a good idea to post it on a BIS list.

Simply said, putting it on our BIS list is a bad idea, even on these boards (which do get linked to from other sites every now and then), because it can give the wrong impression that we actually value agility. At that point it's opening up the list for ridicule because posting an agi piece on a strength tank's BIS list is, well, ridiculous unless one fully understands why it's being posted. Because of that agility I don't trust everyone who views it to know why it would be there despite months of data collection spanning several gigabytes showing how haste and mastery are great stats.

And do keep in mind dodge and parry aren't actually THAT far behind in the grand scheme of things. One of the analogies I've seen is that if haste is a 10 before reaching the cap, dodge and parry are between 8 and 9. Realistically the person saying that was likely skewing things a bit, but I'm pretty sure if haste was put at 1.75 then dodge and parry would be closer to .7 or .8 than .5. As Theck noted in that post, those weights were tweaked because it made AMR optimize more logically when it came to gemming sockets and such.

Jackinthegreen wrote:

Setokaiba wrote:

Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17

I registered here in 2009. I have been reading and keeping up with prot paladin mechanics since before I registered here. I know damn well which stats prot has valued since WotLK. Please don't try to be cutesy with me.

That said, yes, the agility neckpiece does provide better secondary stats than the strength one in general. It could be a gain as well for some sets especially if getting it would be a nice ilvl upgrade too. That does not make it a good idea to post it on a BIS list.

Simply said, putting it on our BIS list is a bad idea, even on these boards (which do get linked to from other sites every now and then), because it can give the wrong impression that we actually value agility. At that point it's opening up the list for ridicule because posting an agi piece on a strength tank's BIS list is, well, ridiculous unless one fully understands why it's being posted. Because of that agility I don't trust everyone who views it to know why it would be there despite months of data collection spanning several gigabytes showing how haste and mastery are great stats.

And do keep in mind dodge and parry aren't actually THAT far behind in the grand scheme of things. One of the analogies I've seen is that if haste is a 10 before reaching the cap, dodge and parry are between 8 and 9. Realistically the person saying that was likely skewing things a bit, but I'm pretty sure if haste was put at 1.75 then dodge and parry would be closer to .7 or .8 than .5. As Theck noted in that post, those weights were tweaked because it made AMR optimize more logically when it came to gemming sockets and such.

Fair enough!
I still thing agi neck is one of the BIS. If you are worried about people "not understanding" why it's there...oh well, those people won't see heroic in the current content anyway

You should well more than enough haste on other pieces and through gems to meet the 50% mark without dipping into other pieces. Agility items have not been listed on any BIS list on this site in quite some time, before Cata I believe.

Agility gives no added benefit where as Strength does. Sure, minimal, but it's still there and better than agility.

Sure, you're right, it's not a 'bad' choice, but it's not necessarily a thought you should have as a "bis" piece at all. Stepping stone for ilvl purposes for stam...sure, I'll give you that.

The crit/mastery neck should probably be higher than the agility piece you're listing as crit probably has more of a benefit than agility.

Agility neutering happened mid Wrath if I remember correctly, so that's probably when they stopped appearing.

I would agree with leaving off agility items unless there is some large disparity in other stats. Using stat weights is hit or miss due to the subjectivity of them. There's not really any universal set of stat weights that are always correct. They are good for getting an idea, but not a 100% factor in comparison.

Agility neutering happened in Cataclysm because we were taking Agi/Mastery gear over Str/avoidance.

That agi neck isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things, though note that strength is more valuable than parry is because it gives us AP. I'd probably still use Juggernaut's, simply because there are actual agility classes that can make better use of the agi neck. And there are better things to try and nab with coins than a low-itemization slot like neckwear.

wow such a debate about this obviously no decent prot pally would take an agi neck over any agi class

dont remember or dident know that there was a big agi thing going on in cata other then the 2 socket agi cloak from firelands tho

but at the end of the day when everything is said and done i will see how things will work out

i decided to aim for the 4 set instead of just the 2 set as well since it rly just seems to nice and comfty to give up on quality of life and all that
with that its gonna become a challenge to reach the haste cap again
and that neck could maybe be the difference between reaching haste cap yes or no so for that reason im just gonna put it on and ppl can make up there own mind about it

personally ill be fuckin having it after the hunter or rogue to play around with it

also added in a crit ring and the prot tier chest btw should have included those from the start sorry about that suppose i should keep it up to date and tidy since meany ppl take interest in this topic so it seems

Setokaiba wrote:

Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17

first. the statweights Theck uses there aren't "the absolute truth" you should know that correct statweights vary from every character to the other and change completely with every schange you make to your gear.

also Theck values Stamina with 4. while I would probably aggre for 25m I can't disagree more for 10man.

the only encoutner I used more stam in 10m for the first pulls was the shamans, after killing it twice I stayed with "no stamina" trinkets for our 3rd kill yesterday and really no problem. On the contrary the + on heal (EF on all 4 of us) and the amazing DPS boost made the fight a lot easier.
the second one was Malkorok HM, for obvious reasons if you know how it is played on HM.

So more stamina (10m) for -> chees mechanics
-> learning a demanding fight

no other Boss has yet deamanded anything more than the HP I already have on my gear (ans back/chest enchant).

so I personally would value stamina with 1. just for your information to not use this numbers postet by theck as the absolute and only truth. (I guess he aggrees)


that being said I checked on both necks. used the same values you postet by Theck (except changing stmaina to 1 but this should not have any influence on the result)

Juggerneck

1384 str * 0.5 = 692
2076 sta *1 = 2076
950 hit *3 = 2850
877 mastery *0.9 = 789.3

--------> 6407.3

Immerseus Agi-neck

2076 sta *1 = 2076
922 haste *1.75= 1613.5
922 mastery *0.9 = 829.8

--------> 4519.3

and yes here we have the next problem. do we really value hit with 3? I mean if we have to much of it anyway?

you are probably going to reforge the hit on the jugger trinket, on the agi trinket you would keep everything untouched (if possible)
so let's reforge hit -> haste


1384 str * 0.5 = 692
2076 sta *1 = 2076
665 hit *3 = 1995
380 haste *1.75 = 665
877 mastery *0.9 = 789.3

--------> 6217.3

so it is still > the agi neck piece.

I am wearing http://www.wowhead.com/item=96916 atm with a haste socket and upgraded twice.

so:
1036 str *0.5 = 518
1675 sta *1 = 1675
704 dodge *0.5= 352
601 haste *1.75= 1051
423 exp *2.99= 1264.77

----------> 4860.77

even this is > the agi neck piece.

to be fair let's upgrade the agi neck piece twice as well

2236 sta *1 = 2236
994 haste *1.75= 1739.5
994 mastery *0.9 = 894.6

--------> 4870.1

so yeah congratulations you upgraded by 10 itembudget points... with a 31 ilvl difference.

I think valuing hit as 3 is erroneous when looking at a single piece. In practice, you will almost always be able to reforge other gear to reach hit cap. A better estimate would be to pretend that hit is as valuable as your most valuable (non-expertise) secondary, which is haste. The reasoning being that the hit on that neck lets you reforge for more haste elsewhere rather than using those reforges to reach hit cap.

The only case where hit/exp would get full value is if you cannot reach the cap without that piece's contribution. Otherwise, I'd just treat hit and expertise on an item like haste for the purposes of value comparisons.

yeah, sounds logical to me.
nonetheless this would still put the juggernaut piece @ 5219,8 ipoints

fair enough:) it's still not bad!