Threat Issues - Need advise

I want to start off by saying that I have read alot of threads about paladin threat, and the general consensus seems to be the following:

"Paladins have low spiky aoe threat, but has good single target threat."

Now, I want to invite you to my world of nightmares, tanking with a BrM in ToT HC.

My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/k ... n/advanced
BrM armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/k ... m/advanced

Log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zfwj ... 868&e=4244 (This is solo tanking Durumu 10HC)

I originally played Prot Warrior (I will leave out my rants about warrior threat here), but switched to Prot Pala mid ToT progression, which is the reason why I havent gotten socket in wep or legendary meta.

So I have been tanking with this BrM for about 6 months now, and from the start, it has been clear to me, that BrM has very potent threat building capabilities, and if I slack off even for a seceond, I loose aggro straight away. It seems to be Keg smash that causes most of the problems, since after many discussions about threat, he simply delays the keg smash after a taunt swap, until its "safe" to use it again.

So the problem I'm having, is that it feels like I'm never "safe" when it comes to threat. Im following my threat meter closely, and it feels like it doesnt matter how long I tank, he seems to be able to hover just below me all the time. This ofc creates alot of situations where he doesnt "wait long enough" after a taunt swap, bad luck with crits etc, and simply takes aggro back again, either after 5 seconds, or after X seconds.

Early in the fights, where we both have somewhat equal threat, if I taunt the boss, pop AW/HAveng, I can keep him off my back, but as soon as HAveng drops, he is right there again, sniffing my heels. Alot of the times, he takes aggro when there is the gap in the rotation. AS > CS > Judge > HW > Conc > CS > Judge > GAP when no procs > CS > Judge etc etc

Ive been diving around in logs, comparing my rotation with other paladins in the same situation, and I cannot find any particular difference in the way I rotate my spells.

Granted, he has legendary meta, and I dont, which ofc is a threat increase, but this feels like more than just a simple gem's difference.

As a serious progression raider, and a newly knighted warrior of light, the highest concern for me is that I am doing something wrong. I have been doing alot of research, and I cannot find anything wrong with the way I play/gear. The advise people give in the threads about threat issues, is just "go hit/exp cap, stack haste", and as u can see, I am doing both. I mentioned the gap in the rotation above, is this normal? Should I delay fillers (AS/HW/Conc) so that I use 1 of them between CS/Judge, and then just wait for CS/Judge to go off cd?

Im basically looking for advice on any faults I may do with gearing, or any tips in rotations that might help me.

Thank you for reading, //Marfyy

That particular rotation above isn't quite right, you've got an extra ability between your first two Crusader Strikes that means you're delaying HP gain a full GCD. I can't look at your log right now to check, but based on what you posted it looks like you're doing CS-Judgement every time? Which is pushing CS to every 6 seconds instead of 4.5 (numbers before haste, of course).

Your basic rotation should be CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X then start over, where the X's are filled with AS, Consecration, and Holy Wrath.

First off, Threat is a non-issue in comparison to DPS! Against your fellow tank, Threat is always an issue, especially after a taunt-switch.

As Kysen pointed out, CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X is the goto MoP rotation, with AS > HW > HoW (when available) > Consecration filling up the X spots.

Your gear looks mostly ok. I noticed a few minor issues:
- You are using 320 Haste gems in red sockets, and reforge towards Expertise. Simply put Haste/Expertise gems in those red sockets, and reforge a little less into Expertise.
- You are using a Dodge trinket. For 20 ghost iron bars and 12 cloth, you can craft a trinket that gives you 600 Expertise, 600 Haste, 600 Mastery, until you found yourself a better trinket.

As for threat, the first time you tank during a fight, pop HA+AW for the extra threat. That should create a bit of a gap. During later taunts, there's more total threat on the boss, so the 10% difference that the monk needs to make becomes bigger and bigger. If it's still an issue, just put Salvation on your Co-tank (assuming he's not tanking something else as well).

Taunt switches really rely on your Co-tank holding back, OR leaving his/her threat stance. I've made it habit to remove RF when my Co-tank (a warrior) taunts off me. I'm not sure if it's acceptable for monks to leave their tank stance, though.

Thank you for the quick replies, and for the tips.

So what sparked this post was that the BrM said to me that when he did LFR, he tanked with a paladin tank, and he felt a huge difference in the amount of threat that this particular paladin did, compared to mine. He described it as whenever the paladin tank taunted, no matter how hard he dpsed, he never got close to overaggroing. This paladin appearently had a few heroic items.

So my overall gear seems to be better than that paladin, which should mean higher haste, and possible a better weapon, since mine is HC TF, and with proper execution, should mean higher threat.

The things you both said about the rotation, will this polishing do this kind of a difference?

Also, the BrM linked the ability breakdown from Recount, and his top damage was ShotR, by quite alot. The log that I linked above, and most of other fights, it comes in under both AS and Judgement for me. A wild guess would suggest that my bad execution of the rotation means less ShotR, and that might be the cause of my bad threat. Confirm?

That sounds right - you'll get a lot more Crusader Strikes in over the course of a fight, which means more ShoRs. I'm not sure it would account for a dramatic difference in threat immediately after tank swaps, though.

Would holy prism help with the gap? I've only lately started to use it as prot but have really taken to it.

The other thing, which I hesitate to say, is "/sit" for extra vengeance.

@econ21, Ye Holy Prism is a good filler, and I use it for all fights that doesnt have a good stack and burn phase. ES is very underused by me.

econ21 wrote:The other thing, which I hesitate to say, is "/sit" for extra vengeance.

Try not to get too used to this, as it'll be fixed in 5.4

The gap might simply be the other paladin salvationed the monk on the tank swaps. I find I use clemancy as a talent for this exact reason, tank swaps are a pain.

Otherwise you might want to wait for your vengance to stack a little before popping wings to make the most out of this.

well this might be helpfull:

Reckoning now increases threat that you generate against the target by 200% for 3 sec.

Should help with tank swaps more often.

Taunt, Growl and Dark Command got the same buffs. MMO Champion doesn't list the same change to Provoke for some reason.

I dunno...3 seconds...That's two abilities with a potential SoTR, so maybe.

Fenrìr wrote:I dunno...3 seconds...That's two abilities with a potential SoTR, so maybe.

Bank 5 HoPo, Taunt, SotR>CS>SotR>Judgment.

still don't feel like 4 abilities is gonna be enough against a monk sometimes, lol.

I wonder if it's going to be 100% + 400% + 200% = 700%, or 200% from 500% is 1000% for a total of 1500%.

I'm guessing it's the latter, else it'd be quite insignificant.

Fenrìr wrote:still don't feel like 4 abilities is gonna be enough against a monk sometimes, lol.

I did some PTR heroics and normals with my BrM monk colleague, and I dont know if the +threat on taunt is even implemented on the ptr, since the tooltips doesnt say anything.

But something has changed. Either he didnt go ham on the target on the swaps (which by the way is highly unlikely), or something else is in the works, but I have 0 problems with the swaps as it is now. My threat is spiking right after a taunt, and doing the 5HoPo ShotR, CS, ShotR, Judge, gets me up to around 30-40% over him, when before it would go to maybe 5-10%.

Whatever they did, its working