3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

So, should +18 stam to shield be the preferred enchant if you are already gemming/enchanting for EH? I saw posts on the first page talking about it and admittedly, I didn't look anywhere else in this topic.

antiy4ho0 wrote:So, should +18 stam to shield be the preferred enchant if you are already gemming/enchanting for EH? I saw posts on the first page talking about it and admittedly, I didn't look anywhere else in this topic.

In a nutshell, yes.

Digren wrote:It affects some of the numbers but not others.

• Stamina/Defense ratios are completely unchanged. It's still Defense / Stamina = ratio.
• Stamina/Agility ratios might need to change a bit, since Agility calculations take into account the stamina equivalent to Agility's armor. This one will take Theck; I'm not certain if armor just got better because of the Stamina nerf.
• Health/Anything ratios have definitely changed. For example, the chest enchant option. To determine the Defense / Stamina ratio, the equivalent Stamina to +275 Health was calculated. Because of the Stamina nerf, the value of +Health enchants just increased.

This is basically correct. Agil values should be basically unchanged though. Consider the formula:

Code: Select all

dA = 12.1264*(K+A)/H * dS

Since the stam->HP value went down (from 12.2593 to 1.1264), one would expect that the ratio of armor:stam should also have gone down slightly (it takes slightly less armor to match the EH contribution of one stamina now, making armor stronger). However, our overall health H has gone down at the same time, weakening the EH contribution of armor. Since both values went down by nearly a factor of 1.04/1.08 (ignoring base health and +health enchants), they cancel and give us the same armor:stam ratio we had before (I think we used 11?).

Since agil still gives us 22 armor, and 22 armor is still worth 2 stam with this ratio, the Agility values shouldn't change.

Note that the choice of 11 is somewhat arbitrary anyhow - we could have used 10, 11, 12, or anything in between depending on what we thought was a representative A and H. It will vary with gear choices as well. So the fact that H doesn't go down by exactly 1.04/1.08 isn't that critical, since we're rounding off well above that level of detail. So take these numbers with a grain of salt - the real point is that picking up a stam bonus with an agility gem is going to be a slightly better trade than doing so with a dodge gem (or defense in a yellow slot).

Also, since we're using 11, we probably shouldn't keep 4 decimal places in the ratios. Maybe 2 decimal places at most, if we pretend we meant exactly 11.0 armor per stam.

theckhd wrote:1) The 18 Stamina Shield enchant isn't listed in the Enchant section, despite it being right around the threshold for level 3 tanks and well below the threshold for level 4 tanks.

Added.

bentglasstube wrote:

Digren wrote:1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up (did a quick scan and didn't see it, but I think you mean to suggest Enchant Chest - Super Health rather than Enchant Chest - Superior Health. I certainly hope most tankadins would be able to figure that out, but best to be clear.

Fixed, thanks!

The stamina stacking conversion table is up to date.

Hm, so after searching around and not coming up with anything, I'm curious about one thing after plugging in the gear/gems in question through Rawr.

My questions stems from something like Pillars of Might (ilvl 264) with a Red, Blue and Yellow socket and a 12 stam bonus and not finding a Nightmare's Tear equated out.

Would dropping a Shifting Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon and a Nightmare's Tear yield the same results if not slightly better in terms of EH over straight Solid Majestic Zircons?

Obviously you can only get away with this once but if the payout for that one time is worth it, I feel it should be listed out there.

Fenrìr wrote:Hm, so after searching around and not coming up with anything, I'm curious about one thing after plugging in the gear/gems in question through Rawr.

My questions stems from something like Pillars of Might (ilvl 264) with a Red, Blue and Yellow socket and a 12 stam bonus and not finding a Nightmare's Tear equated out.

Would dropping a Shifting Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon and a Nightmare's Tear yield the same results if not slightly better in terms of EH over straight Solid Majestic Zircons?

Obviously you can only get away with this once but if the payout for that one time is worth it, I feel it should be listed out there.

The existing suggestion for a tank with iLvl 264 gear:
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
Net: 90 stamina, which is about 1091 health

Your suggestion for a tank with iLvl 264 gear:
- Shifting Dreadstone (10 agi, 15 sta)
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
- Nightmare Tear (10 agi, 10 sta)
- Socket bonus (12 sta)
Net: 67 stamina plus 40 armor, which is in a pure physical mitigatable fight the equivalent of about 856 health (less for fights with any magic component)

So no, it doesn't yield the same or better EH.

When, if ever, would Armsman make a comeback for a 'generic' pally tank?

My question is based on having read somewhere (possibly here, but not certain) that dps-spec dps scales better with gear compared to tank-spec dps. As tank threat to a major extent is based on the underlying dps it seems reasonable that at some point maintaining threat would become impossible.

Now, if the answer is: at an average ilevel 400 given the current mechanism, then that answer is in reality: never. But if the lines cross at, say ilevel 280, then we arguably have a point at which Armsman becomes the BiS enchant for gloves.

yappo wrote:When, if ever, would Armsman make a comeback for a 'generic' pally tank?

My question is based on having read somewhere (possibly here, but not certain) that dps-spec dps scales better with gear compared to tank-spec dps. As tank threat to a major extent is based on the underlying dps it seems reasonable that at some point maintaining threat would become impossible.

Now, if the answer is: at an average ilevel 400 given the current mechanism, then that answer is in reality: never. But if the lines cross at, say ilevel 280, then we arguably have a point at which Armsman becomes the BiS enchant for gloves.

That's a Theck question, well worth posting in its own thread in the advanced forum.

From the OP: "Caution, never drop below 540 defense! Sometimes you may have to skip a low-cost stamina option to stay uncrittable." As far as I'm aware resilience still counts towards crit reduction in PvE as well as PvP, and as the stam/resilience shoulder enchant is one of the recommended options perhaps there should be a note about only needing 536 defense if you're using that.

Rhiannon wrote:From the OP: "Caution, never drop below 540 defense! Sometimes you may have to skip a low-cost stamina option to stay uncrittable." As far as I'm aware resilience still counts towards crit reduction in PvE as well as PvP, and as the stam/resilience shoulder enchant is one of the recommended options perhaps there should be a note about only needing 536 defense if you're using that.

Good clarification to put in imho. I, for one, had totally forgot about the fact I had that extra uncrittability from the 15resil.

Rhiannon wrote:From the OP: "Caution, never drop below 540 defense! Sometimes you may have to skip a low-cost stamina option to stay uncrittable." As far as I'm aware resilience still counts towards crit reduction in PvE as well as PvP, and as the stam/resilience shoulder enchant is one of the recommended options perhaps there should be a note about only needing 536 defense if you're using that.

Indeed. However, defense also affects the heal provided by Argent Defender, though that degrades linearly (meaning that 536 defense yields a heal that is 536/540 as good as 540 defense). More importantly, I hesitate to say "you can use resilience to cover a defense gap" because someone out there would decide that he/she could then tank in PVP gear.

I'll work on better wording, but for now consider that a nuance perhaps too subtle for a general guide. Those of you who know what's best for yourself can rely on the PVP shoulder resilience if required.

Actually, if you rely on the resilience, the PVP shoulder enchant becomes one of the best (i.e. lowest cost) stamina stacking options. The ratio used in my table assumes the resilience is valueless; were it to have value then the "loss" when switching from the def/dodge enchant is reduced.

Digren wrote:However, defense also affects the heal provided by Argent Defender, though that degrades linearly (meaning that 536 defense yields a heal that is 536/540 as good as 540 defense).

Isn't the heal based on the defense we get from gear, and not the base 400? So it woudl actually be 136/140 as good?

Thanistor wrote:

Digren wrote:However, defense also affects the heal provided by Argent Defender, though that degrades linearly (meaning that 536 defense yields a heal that is 536/540 as good as 540 defense).

Isn't the heal based on the defense we get from gear, and not the base 400? So it woudl actually be 136/140 as good?

Oops, yeah, you're right.

Cool. In any event, it was "close enough" for the real world , but I wanted to be sure myself, and for your excellent guide.

I just want to thank Digren and all the other posters. This has been an invaluable guide as I gear my way to the back end of ICC.

/cheer!

Okay, I feel like I just need some clarification on gemming.

My gear is pretty much all 264's minus a few 251's and for a while, I was just matching Gem's to match the bonus for my Paladin. Then I read things like this...

"ToC Hard / Icecrown Citadel? / End Game. Match socket colors only when the bonus is +12 stamina."

So, I only have 2 items with a 12 STAM socket bonus and that's my chest and my helmet. It said to weigh the benefits of the bonus towards the non-blue sockets so in my chest, it has a RED, YELLOW, and BLUE socket making the stam bonus for the other 2 gems 6 STAM from what I read. Well, if an item only has 2 sockets (Say.. a red and blue) but has a +9 STAM bonus... would I not want to gem for that bonus being that it would equal a +9 STAM bonus to the red socket vs. +6 for the +12 STAM bonus?

Then I see this...

"Always match blue sockets, no matter how good or bad the bonus may be. The whole point is to stack stamina, right? Bonuses attached to blue sockets are freebies."

So this raises my question about items with 1 socket and say... a 6 STAM bonus. Should I just be sticking 30 STAM gems anyway? Or should I be going after the bonuses on single socket items that aren't blue?

Please help clarify!

Altais wrote:Then I see this...

"Always match blue sockets, no matter how good or bad the bonus may be. The whole point is to stack stamina, right? Bonuses attached to blue sockets are freebies."

Please help clarify!

The guide is referring to an item which has a single socket, which is blue. It's saying throw a stam gem in it and congratulate yourself on getting a free socket bonus (free as in, one you didn't have to sacrifice stamina stacking for).

Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..

Altais wrote:Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..

Always depends on YOUR tanking situation.

Anyway, if the bonus is 12 stamina, I think most everyone here agrees that agi/stam gem is a no-brainer.

Altais wrote:Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..

There's not a definitive answer, so I can't give you one. Based on your gear level, you may or may not wish to match +6 stamina socket bonuses. Read the "Tank Levels" and "How to Stack Stamina" sections of the guide. Then, make your own decision or post in the Gear Check and Advice thread and someone else will help you.

Also, you earlier asked about a piece that had, say a +9 stamina socket bonus and three sockets - one red, one yellow, one blue. In that case, as in every case, you put a +30 stamina gem in the blue socket. Then, if you want the bonus, you have two non-blue sockets to match to get it. That basically means that each non-blue socket has an associated +4.5 stamina socket bonus. Do you want that bonus? Maybe. It's not very good, but a starting tank may want it because his or her overall avoidance and defense are low, so there is benefit to get dodge or agility plus defense plus some stamina. Again, you need to decide this based on your tank level, or you need to go post a link to your profile and ask for help if you can't figure it out on your own.

Good luck!

quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks

Nidokuin wrote:quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks

That is how I generally socket for a two socket +9 bonus if it is a blue/red socket. I dont tend to socket for the bonus when I have 3 sockets of different colours, blue/red/yellow for example. Plus I find that the pieces that have 3 sockets generally [chest + legs] at my progression level dictate which way I socket them anyway irrespective of the +12 socket bonus.

Barathorn

I have a small correction to make to this amazing guide. It doesn't make any significant difference, it's more for the sake of precision.
There aren't any +9 avoidance socket bonuses in game. As far as tanking gear is concerned, socket bonuses (for items with 174 ilvl or higher) are as follows:

There are 2 categories of stats as socket bonuses in tank items.
Category 1: Stamina, Block Value
Category 2: Defense, Dodge, Parry, Block, Hit, Expertise

Any piece with 3 sockets or a head piece with one meta + one other socket: +12 of category 1 or +8 of category 2
Any piece with 2 sockets: +9 of category 1 or +6 of category 2
Any piece with 1 socket: +6 of category 1 or +4 of category 2


The only exception of the above I could find is the paladin T7 head with +6 expertise instead of +8.

Edit: To spare digren from having to run the calculations.
1.2 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10+8)/15=1.27
1.3 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10*1.1*0.83+8)/(30-15-20/11)