3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Digren wrote:1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up (did a quick scan and didn't see it, but I think you mean to suggest Enchant Chest - Super Health rather than Enchant Chest - Superior Health. I certainly hope most tankadins would be able to figure that out, but best to be clear.

Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?

TheBaldGuy wrote:Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?

It's the ratio of the loss of avoidance over the gain in stamina. It's probably best explained by example.

Digren wrote:0.9333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating

Pretend you have an item with a yellow socket that has a 4 dodge rating bonus. Here's what you have in each scenario:

Zircon: 30 stam, 0 avoidance
Eye of Zul, + 4 dodge from socket bonus: 15 Stam, 14 avoidance.

Diff: -15 stam, +14 avoidance

Ratio: 14/15 = 0.9333

In other words, to go from the gem that matches the socket bonus to a blue 30 stam gem, you lose 14 avoidance and gain 15 stamina, for a ratio of 14/15=0.933. The higher this ratio, the more "costly" it is to switch to stamina - you lose more avoidance per point of stamina gained.

Another example, this time to highlight an error with the agility calculations:

Digren wrote:8.3000 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of stamina

Zircon: 30 Stam
Dreadstone, +12 stam: 10 Agi, 27 stam.

The 10 agility gives us 20 armor, which is 1.8182 stam of physical EH. Each point of Agility is equivalent to about 0.84 points of dodge rating. However, the 10 agility is actually 11 after kings, so we get 11*0.84=9.24 points of avoidance rating from that 10 agility.

Note that we don't use kings for the stamina equivalent, since we didn't do it for the stamina itself (otherwise we'd have to treat the zircon as 33 stam and the dreadstone as 29.7 stam). This is the error I'm pointing out with the original calculations.

So we have a net total of 9.24 avoidance rating, and 27 stam, plus 1.8182 stam of armor.

Diff: -9.24 avoidance, +(30-27-1.8182)=1.1818 stam
Ratio: 7.8186

Re-running the numbers in the original post, I get the following (bolded text/numbers mean I've made a correction, Armor->Stam conversion is 1/11, Agil->stam conversion is 2/11 pre-kings):

0.6667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is valueless (i.e. not a tanking stat, or block rating)
0.7822 : Replace [Enchant Cloak - Titanweave] with [Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor] (but switching instead to the agility enchant may be better; see the enchant section for details)
=16/(225/11)

0.9091 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of stamina
0.9333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating
0.8800 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
=22/(275/10/1.1)

1.0667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of avoidance rating
1.1111 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of stamina
1.1111 : Replace [Enchant Shield - Defense] with [Enchant Shield - Major Stamina]
1.1667 : Replace [Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle] with [Greater Inscription of the Gladiator]
1.2667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of avoidance rating

1.4667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of avoidance - do these exist on gear?

1.6667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of stamina
2.5000 : Replace [Master's Inscription of the Pinnacle] with [Greater Inscription of the Gladiator]
2.5000 : Replace [Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector] with [Mind Amplification Dish]
3.3333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of stamina

And the agility options, all of which have changed. It's been determined that Toughness and the armor meta don't affect bonus armor on items, enchanted armor, or armor gained from enchanted agility, so we can ignore both toughness and the meta.

0.2381 : Replace [Enchant Gloves - Major Agility] with [Reticulated Armor Webbing]
=(20*1.1*0.831245934)/((885-40)/11)

0.6937 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is valueless (i.e. not a tanking stat, or block rating)
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-20/11)

0.9958 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934)/(30-15-4-20/11)

0.9971 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+4)/(30-15-20/11)

1.1488 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of avoidance rating
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+6) / (30-15-20/11)

1.2732 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-6-20/11)

1.1301 : Replace [Enchant Gloves - Major Agility] with [Heavy Borean Armor Kit]
=(20*1.1*0.831245934)/(18-20/11)

1.2225 : Replace [Enchant Cloak - Major Agility] with [Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor]
=22*1.1*0.831245934/((225-22*2)/11)

1.3764 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of avoidance rating
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+9) / (30-15-20/11)

1.2924 : Replace [Flexweave Underlay] with [Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor]
=23*1.1*0.831245934/((225-23*2)/11)

2.1865 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-9-20/11)

7.7370 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-12-20/11)


1.6040 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of avoidance - again, not sure if this actually exists, but it was missing
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+12) / (30-15-20/11)

Thanks for the updates. I'm not making any edits to my guide while indentation is broken; I'll incorporate them once that's fixed.

theckhd wrote:0.8800 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
=22/(275/10/1.1)

I think the original value was correct here, Theck. We've always been using "gem value" stamina, for simplicity, or stamina before any modifiers. So that 275 needs to be reduced by 10% (kings/sanc), and 14% (prot pally stamina scaling), leading to the old ratio.

TheBaldGuy wrote:Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?

On the offchance that Theck answered a different question than I think you meant to ask: In some ways, choosing the ratio you want to aim for is personal choice. Progression tanks on this board generally shoot for somewhere in the range of 1.4 to 2.0 as their ratio of choice. The ratios we calculated (okay, mostly Theck, I'm not trying to steal credit) primarily codified the optimal order for replacement.

A ratio of 1.4 or so is typically using optimal EH enchants, but picking up all +9 stamina bonuses. A ratio of 2.0 or so, my personal ballpark, will skip 9stam bonuses. There actually isn't a hell of a lot of difference between the two numbers. Things get more interesting as you dip down into the 1.1 ratio area (avoidance junkies), because quite a lot of enchants and gem choices are clustered around that tradeoff value.

Meloree wrote:

theckhd wrote:0.8800 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
=22/(275/10/1.1)

I think the original value was correct here, Theck. We've always been using "gem value" stamina, for simplicity, or stamina before any modifiers. So that 275 needs to be reduced by 10% (kings/sanc), and 14% (prot pally stamina scaling), leading to the old ratio.

Ah, you're right. I forgot to remove our stamina scaling when converting to gem value.

So it should be 22/(275/10/1.1/1.14) = 1.0032. That still comes out different from the old ratio of 1.0092. What am I missing?

275/10/1.1/1.14 works out to about 22 stamina (21.9298), which seems reasonable given that the chest enchant is 22 defense rating.

theckhd wrote:Ah, you're right. I forgot to remove our stamina scaling when converting to gem value.

So it should be 22/(275/10/1.1/1.14) = 1.0032. That still comes out different from the old ratio of 1.0092. What am I missing?

275/10/1.1/1.14 works out to about 22 stamina (21.9298), which seems reasonable given that the chest enchant is 22 defense rating.

Rounding error. 1.08*1.06 doesn't actually equal 1.14... but it's close enough. We're talking about being 0.006 off in the ratios.

theckhd wrote:Ah, you're right. I forgot to remove our stamina scaling when converting to gem value.

So it should be 22/(275/10/1.1/1.14) = 1.0032. That still comes out different from the old ratio of 1.0092. What am I missing?

275/10/1.1/1.14 works out to about 22 stamina (21.9298), which seems reasonable given that the chest enchant is 22 defense rating.

Well in your original post you wrote:

Theck wrote:275 health is equivalent to 275/(1.1*1.08*1.6*10)=21.8 stam

I think that was supposed to be 1.08*1.06*1.1, which is close to but not equal to the 1.14*1.1 you're using now.

Actually, that doesn't yield the same ratio either. In your original calculation, you rounded 21.8378756 to get 21.8, then used the rounded value in your subsequent calculation. I apparently reused your value without redoing the math.

Assume the 6% and 8% should be multiplied and not added (you know better than me on this), the correct result would be 1.0074. If they should be added, then multiplied with the kings bonus, the correct result would be the 1.0032 you just calculated.

The only reason it matters would be if someone decided to swap their chest too soon or too late relative to a few gems:
1.0063 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of stamina
1.0044 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating

At 1.0074, all of the above should be swapped first. (Sure, still not a big deal, but some folks are sticklers for accuracy.)

Digren wrote:Assume the 6% and 8% should be multiplied and not added (you know better than me on this), the correct result would be 1.0074. If they should be added, then multiplied with the kings bonus, the correct result would be the 1.0032 you just calculated.

No, they're definitely multiplicative. I should have noticed that when Meloree posted 1.14 in the first place - that's the problem with trying to make quick posts between doing actual work, I suppose.

Then again, I should also have known better than rounding something to 3 significant figures and then giving a result with 4 significant figures of accuracy in the first place.


So the proper conversion should be
275/10/1.1/1.06/1.08 = 21.8379 (health->stam)

which gives the 1.0074 ratio.

theckhd wrote:It's the ratio of the loss of avoidance over the gain in stamina. It's probably best explained by example.

Digren wrote:0.9333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating

Pretend you have an item with a yellow socket that has a 4 dodge rating bonus. Here's what you have in each scenario:

Zircon: 30 stam, 0 avoidance
Eye of Zul, + 4 dodge from socket bonus: 15 Stam, 14 avoidance.

Diff: -15 stam, +14 avoidance

Ratio: 14/15 = 0.9333

In other words, to go from the gem that matches the socket bonus to a blue 30 stam gem, you lose 14 avoidance and gain 15 stamina, for a ratio of 14/15=0.933. The higher this ratio, the more "costly" it is to switch to stamina - you lose more avoidance per point of stamina gained.

Perfect, that is precisely what I needed. I thought I'd found it on Page 5 but my numbers didn't make sense (and neither did the formula I derived), so I asked. I'm kind of in between levels 3 and 4 at the moment, toes dipped in both pools if you will, so I'm taking a deeper look at improving what I've got and which upgrades make the most sense for me now that I'm back in a raiding guild that is actually raiding. It might help to put the formula in the main post when the opportunity is there.

Meloree wrote:

TheBaldGuy wrote:Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?

On the offchance that Theck answered a different question than I think you meant to ask: In some ways, choosing the ratio you want to aim for is personal choice. Progression tanks on this board generally shoot for somewhere in the range of 1.4 to 2.0 as their ratio of choice. The ratios we calculated (okay, mostly Theck, I'm not trying to steal credit) primarily codified the optimal order for replacement.

A ratio of 1.4 or so is typically using optimal EH enchants, but picking up all +9 stamina bonuses. A ratio of 2.0 or so, my personal ballpark, will skip 9stam bonuses. There actually isn't a hell of a lot of difference between the two numbers. Things get more interesting as you dip down into the 1.1 ratio area (avoidance junkies), because quite a lot of enchants and gem choices are clustered around that tradeoff value.

Hmmm that is a different question than what I asked but it is worth exploring, or at least verifying I understand it. Sometimes (often) I overthink things, so the post may explain it and I may not see it for the pixels.

If I understand you correctly, if you favor avoidance you want to enhance for a lower number, and if you favor EH a higher number? I'll use one of the pieces I am looking at changing as an example. I have boots with a yellow slot for +6 stam. Currently I have 10str/10def because at the time I needed the defense and well just wanted the strength.

So, if I replaced that with say a 10def/15 this ratio works out to .9 (or does defense have a different calculation? I'll assume no for discussion). Does that mean if I prefer avoidance I am better off with the hybrid, but better off w/the 30stam if I prefer stamina? Assume I maintain uncrittable in either case.

Also, the way it reads to me, the further toward end-game I am, the more I *should* lean toward stam in general. Did I get that right? And the "ratio of choice" means that you prefer enhancements that provide a ratio in that neighborhood, correct? Further, if say I decided to go for a 1.4 ratio, I would start with my lowest ratio enhancements and start replacing them with ones close to 1.4. If I decided to go the other direction and go for 1.1 I'd do the opposite by replacing those with a high number with those close to 1.1, correct?

Just making sure I'm not overthinking it.

TheBaldGuy wrote:I'll use one of the pieces I am looking at changing as an example. I have boots with a yellow slot for +6 stam. Currently I have 10str/10def because at the time I needed the defense and well just wanted the strength.

So, if I replaced that with say a 10def/15 this ratio works out to .9 (or does defense have a different calculation? I'll assume no for discussion). Does that mean if I prefer avoidance I am better off with the hybrid, but better off w/the 30stam if I prefer stamina? Assume I maintain uncrittable in either case.

If your socket currently contains a 10str/10def gem, and you replace that with a 10def/15sta gem, you have not done anything related to the stamina conversion table.

1. You are still getting the socket bonus, so it is irrelevant.
2. You are replacing strength, a valueless stat (more or less)* with stamina.

Thus, were a ratio calculated, it would be closer to 0.

* Strength provides some benefit from block, but that's generally not considered worthy of consideration.

Also, the way it reads to me, the further toward end-game I am, the more I *should* lean toward stam in general. Did I get that right?

Yup, exactly.

And the "ratio of choice" means that you prefer enhancements that provide a ratio in that neighborhood, correct?

It means you want to convert everything with a lower ratio to stamina. That means you don't need the defense or avoidance from the sockets and enchants with a lower ratio, and would rather have stamina.

Further, if say I decided to go for a 1.4 ratio, I would start with my lowest ratio enhancements and start replacing them with ones close to 1.4. If I decided to go the other direction and go for 1.1 I'd do the opposite by replacing those with a high number with those close to 1.1, correct?

This is in the original post:

Digren wrote:

To use the above tables,

• Look through your gear, find the place where you can make a swap with the smallest number.
  
• Verify that you'll stay above the defense minimum, then make the change.
• Keep going until you reach the defense minimum, a health you're happy with, or an avoidance percentage you wish to stay above.
• Revisit the table each time you get a new piece of gear, to see if your new stats let you make more changes.

I know it's hard to read; formatting is shit since the [list] tag isn't properly causing an indent.

Digren wrote:

TheBaldGuy wrote:I'll use one of the pieces I am looking at changing as an example. I have boots with a yellow slot for +6 stam. Currently I have 10str/10def because at the time I needed the defense and well just wanted the strength.

So, if I replaced that with say a 10def/15 this ratio works out to .9 (or does defense have a different calculation? I'll assume no for discussion). Does that mean if I prefer avoidance I am better off with the hybrid, but better off w/the 30stam if I prefer stamina? Assume I maintain uncrittable in either case.

If your socket currently contains a 10str/10def gem, and you replace that with a 10def/15sta gem, you have not done anything related to the stamina conversion table.

1. You are still getting the socket bonus, so it is irrelevant.
2. You are replacing strength, a valueless stat (more or less)* with stamina.

Thus, were a ratio calculated, it would be closer to 0.

* Strength provides some benefit from block, but that's generally not considered worthy of consideration.


I know it's hard to read; formatting is shit since the [list] tag isn't properly causing an indent.

Ah so I need to reframe the test then. I should instead be determining if I am better off with a stam as replacement or with the hybrid, by assuming for calculation that I had the hybrid in and calculating it that way. Looking at it that way, its -9 stam for +10 defense for the .9 ratio, meaning the +30 stam is a better enhancement (assuming I stay above 540). Did I get it right that time?

TheBaldGuy wrote:Ah so I need to reframe the test then. I should instead be determining if I am better off with a stam as replacement or with the hybrid, by assuming for calculation that I had the hybrid in and calculating it that way. Looking at it that way, its -9 stam for +10 defense for the .9 ratio, meaning the +30 stam is a better enhancement (assuming I stay above 540). Did I get it right that time?

Unless we've gone and redefined something while I wasn't paying attention, the ratios have typically been given in terms of "stamina value". In other words, stamina is always the denominator. Your ratio there should be 10/9 for switching from 10def/15stam gem with a 6 stam socket bonus to a 30 stam gem, or 1.11.

Meloree wrote:

TheBaldGuy wrote:Ah so I need to reframe the test then. I should instead be determining if I am better off with a stam as replacement or with the hybrid, by assuming for calculation that I had the hybrid in and calculating it that way. Looking at it that way, its -9 stam for +10 defense for the .9 ratio, meaning the +30 stam is a better enhancement (assuming I stay above 540). Did I get it right that time?

Unless we've gone and redefined something while I wasn't paying attention, the ratios have typically been given in terms of "stamina value". In other words, stamina is always the denominator. Your ratio there should be 10/9 for switching from 10def/15stam gem with a 6 stam socket bonus to a 30 stam gem, or 1.11.

Ah, thanks.

I'm not sure if this has been asked before. If it has been, I apologise.

1.1111 : Replace [Enchant Shield - Defense] with [Enchant Shield - Major Stamina]
A level four tank may choose to gem and enchant for stamina or armor at ratios up to 2.0, as ratios above that yield little benefit.

Shield Enchant

• [Enchant Shield - Defense] : +20 Defense Rating : Crafted (Enchanting)
• [Titanium Plating] : +81 Block Value : Crafted (Blacksmithing)

Following the reasoning in the first quote, shouldn't the stamina enchant be included in the Shield Enchants' list?

Anubisknight wrote:I'm not sure if this has been asked before. If it has been, I apologise.

1.1111 : Replace [Enchant Shield - Defense] with [Enchant Shield - Major Stamina]
A level four tank may choose to gem and enchant for stamina or armor at ratios up to 2.0, as ratios above that yield little benefit.

Shield Enchant

• [Enchant Shield - Defense] : +20 Defense Rating : Crafted (Enchanting)
• [Titanium Plating] : +81 Block Value : Crafted (Blacksmithing)

Following the reasoning in the first quote, shouldn't the stamina enchant be included in the Shield Enchants' list?

I haven't finished updating the enchant list to correspond with my 3.3 recommendations. I was working on it when the site broke, and I'm not touching anything until indentation is fixed.

It's on my list. =p Basically if the little images are missing from an enchant slot, it's still giving my 3.2 recommendation.

Gotcha! Thanks

Digren wrote:
1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]

I think you mean [Enchant Chest - Super Health]

krick wrote:

Digren wrote:
1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]

I think you mean [Enchant Chest - Super Health]

Yeah, it's mentioned on the previous page. Thanks. I'll fix it when site formatting is no longer broken.

Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.

theckhd wrote:Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.

now is that 0.83 or 0.8300?

Aedh wrote:

theckhd wrote:Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.

now is that 0.83 or 0.8300?

It's technically 45.25018692/(59.88023952/1.1)=0.831245934.

(dodge rating for 1% dodge) / (agil for 1% dodge)



Also I've updated the numbers in my post, they should all be correct now (using all 9 decimal places of accuracy in the conversion, even).