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Maintankadin

One thing that has been bugging me recently...

Mishdorf
Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:32 am

One thing that has been bugging me recently...

In its efforts to fix paladins, I think that Blizzard has really missed the target - and in the process has divided the paladin community. Wall of text incoming.

A Divided Community

This site just goes to show that there *is* a divided paladin community. Paladins, for the most part, see themselves as "holy pallies", "ret pallies" or "tankadins". We do not see ourselves as paladins first, who are currently specced prot or ret. To most players, the mechanics of the other trees are foreign in as much as they mostly exist as a novelty which we may occasionally play with.

This is not the case with druids, who are also a dps/tank/healing hybrid (and in fact they have four different options really, with their dps either being ranged or melee). It is certainly not the case with warriors. The only class with a similar divide, though much less exaggerated is the Shaman class, but even then, the difference is far less pronounced than for paladins. Priests, even though they cannot use holy spells in shadow form do not have the community split, hurling abuse and derogatory comments at each other. And of course all of the pure dps classes consider themselves as a "mage" or a "lock" or a "hunter" etc...

Why the divide?

Before I look at what divides the paladin community, I would first like to look at what unites the other hybrid communities.

Druids - The druid community is one that is very united in their push to further their class in totality. This, I would say, is largely down to the mechanics of the class itself. Having different forms for the different roles means that druids are the ultimate hybrid class. In fact I would say that they are the *only* true hybrid class, who can perform, even at a basic level in all of their roles. Moonkin druids still switch to bear form when they are under heavy attack and cat form when they have need for stealth. Bear form druids switch almost effortlessly to a quality dps roll while not tanking. Resto druids also have use of their tanking form (and occasionally offensive dps spells). In short, druids, regardless of shape or size, will at least occasionally use the mechanics of the other specs that are available - even if it is just to pull a mob.

Warriors - Warriors are a united community. They do not have large wars between the specs, except to get a spec buffed for them. This is probably due to a couple of factors. The first thing that springs to mind is that warriors are used to being the kings of tanking - which is the most prestigious spot in the raid. If anything, historically they have had to push to get their dps specs buffed so that some could escape the job of tanking and solo with effectiveness. Warrior tanks can also do a reasonable job of dpsing, and dps warriors a reasonable job of tanking while not specced.

Priests - Priests have in the past found themselves in a situation similar to paladins. They want to dps, but got pigeon-holed into a healing position. But as time went on the Disc and Shadow trees got buffed, which gave priests better pvp and dps viability respectively. Disc and holy priests both use similar mechanics and gear, while shadow priests fill a vital niche - meaning that priests can spec in whatever manner they like and still be in demand. It helps them that if they buff the dps of shadow, it will not cause nerfs in holy, due to shadow form being necessary for a priest to dps seriously, and vice versa with heals.

Shaman - Shaman have historically had a very confused roll. Initially they were designed to be blizzards answer to the paladin. They were initially designed to be able to tank somewhat, though that changed for reasons Blizzard only knows. Still, even though they have three different specs which largely require different gear, shaman really don't bicker amongst themselves and call for nerfs to other trees. I can only assume that this is because resto and enhance shamen both have incredibly important niches in raids, and that because of the mechanics of their dps and healing roles, buffs to one tree are very unlikely to effect the role of the other trees.

Paladin - Our class. Why are we divided as a community? I believe that it comes down to a few things. The things that tend to keep the other hybrids united are several, but revolve around two main principles - having vitally important uses that are *needed* by raids and a seperation of talents which does not result in buffs to one spec overpowering another. This is, I feel, the historical cause of the divide in the paladin community. In most BC content, the only paladin spec which has been neeeded in raids has been holy paladins, regardless of the strength of either of the other two trees. This reflects the pre-BC days, though not as bad - where holy was the *only* spec that was raid viable.

Unfortunately for paladins, blizzard (perhaps rightly, perhaps not) tends to view the paladin class as one that is defined by talents, rather than abilities. This is reflected in the utter lack of baseline abilities that the paladin gets compared to other classes. By comparison, shaman get all bar two totems baseline, windfury weapon enhancement as baseline and the main damaging elemental spells as baseline. Similarly, warriors get a gimped version of devestate baseline and nearly all of their mitigation talents baseline. Sure, they still have to spec for last stand, bloodthirst and mortal strike, but the core abilities are there so that they can effectively perform in an off-roll.

By contrast, paladins really only have, consecration and the seal/judgement system and all the holy spells as baseline. And I think this is largely what the problem is. The core paladin is holy specced by nature - having flash of light, holy light, cleanse and all the blessings baseline. If you were to take one look at an untalented paladin and see their skills, you would immediately pigeonhole them as a healer. To fix this, blizzard had to overpower the abilities and scaling that they gave paladins deep in each tree. Simultaneously, the baseline paladin is the worst offensive class in the game. Other than seals/judgements, consecration and HoJ, nothing that the base paladin has is offensive in nature.

Many paladins rolled a paladin because they liked paladins from previous blizzard games - Warcraft 2 and 3 and Diablo 2. All of these paladins were first and foremost melee fighters, and their healing was something that was important but a sideline (warcrafts) or virtually nonexistant (diablo). Many players hoped for an experience similar to this, but reached the endgame and were forced to be holy. As things improved for the other specs, this lead to a resentment by these holy paladins for the simple fact that they wanted to be a ret/prot pally, but their circumstances wouldn't allow it (i.e. they were required by their guild to heal or they didn't have the gear or time to get the gear needed to be effective). Of those that did move over to prot or ret, many had a severe resentment for all of the time that they were forced holy, and cheered blizzard whenever holy copped a nerf - for the simple reason that it meant they were less likely to be forced into that role.

Even for those who "grew up" as ret or prot faced another challenge, a divide which separates them still today. Playing a ret pally is almost like playing a different class to playing a prot pally. The core mechanics are so different that many players of both specs don't know how the other spec even works, let alone how to play it well.

Even if a player did regularly respec between prot, holy and ret (which most don't), the constant gear changes between the three specs make it all but impossible to have raid viable gear for an offspec. Though this is the same situation the other hybrids face too.

What is being done and what can be done?

Wrath of the Lich King will change several things for our class for the better, which should hopefully unite the class somewhat more. The biggest and best change for class unity is the addition of Shield of the Righteous to the list of baseline talents, and the buffing of baseline Righteous Fury. This will let ret and holy paladins at least offtank and experience some of the prot mechanics.

We still, however, need a few additional things to happen to address the disunity in the paladin community.

1) Holy needs to be a more attractive tree. More interesting mechanics need to be given to avoid the "Flash of Light spam" syndrome that effects the spec. Beacon of light is a start, but there needs to be something to do for holy pallies other than spam flash and then hit the occasional holy light to keep lights grace up. Resto shammies are in many ways like holy pallies, in that their abilities are available baseline to the whole shaman class, but their healing mechanics are so much more interesting and earthshield is a very interesting and fun tool to use. Holy pallies need to be given a better choice than "do I use holy light or flash of light". Shammies, priests and druids all have many different, unique, fun healing spells for different situations. Holy Pallies really don't. If holy pallies got some interesting new mechanics then it would go a long way to easing the resentment that they may have to the people who "get" to spec prot or ret.

2) Paladins need dps abilities baseline. Seal of Command would be a good start (for when prot/holy need to dps). A nerfed version of crusader strike would be lovely (then make the current one "improved crusader strike").

3) Paladins need a better delineation between thier classes while in combat. A prot/ret pally offhealing is functionally no different to a holy pally (a good thing from prots perspective) but the same situation is not carried over as well to the other off-spec roles. Contrasted with druids, shammies or even warriors, paladins are severely gimped when moving to an offspec role. To address this, prot/holy should get higher dps, but with a damage debuff should be automatically built in to righteous fury. With more baseline dps skills this should not be a problem. Alternatively, blizzard could move righteous fury into devotion aura and improve baseline ret aura and concentration aura to improve damage and healing respectively while active (obviously the rest of the raid would be uneffected by those changes, just the pally using it).

4) Paladin itemisation still means that we need three different sets for three different jobs. This is incredibly unfortunate and could have been avoided with some more thought (for example, making the best option for ret and holy pallies the same spellpower plate by automatic stat conversion when ret/conc aura is active).

Summary

This wall of text has gone on far enough. To summarise: make holy interesting, give baseline dps talents, allow gear sharing and make baseline paladins better at all three roles.
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"mana efficiency is for people who aren't tanking enough mobs" - Knaughty
Omatre
Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:54 am
To simplify your statement even more:

Shut up, sit back, and enjoy the ride while you have it. The Nerfbat will get to your door to pummel you repeatedly eventually.

The sad fact of the matter is that LK should have been the paladins shining moment for the game. Without a doubt, if there was ever a part of the game more wrapped in paladin lore than LK itself, then I have not seen it.

Fact of the matter is, its done just the opposite for the most part so far. Its made the DK the focal point, when it should be that DK and Paladin share the stage equally. Without the Paladin, you had no DK in lore basis. The DK's are paladins, were paladins, however you want to approach it.

So to rip the leg off of the paladin, in order to feed the DK, is equivalent to giving shamans tanking abilities, because Druids can heal. It doesn't fit, and it will never fit right. It feels clusterfk'd and thats how its probably gonna release.

The march to Arthas castle should be lead by paladins and DK's, the two armies meant to destroy the darkness, and the LK.

Thats why there's segregation in the community, because our role in the next expansion was basically shelved for the non-lore, non-pve playing community, who are only concerned about shoulders and weapons to show off their e-peen. The true basis of this game means absolutely nothing to them. The history, the lore, to them its a cute story that they don't care to read, and pay no homage to. They're more interested in a rating #, than a historically accurate story behing unfolded, with their character playing a role in that unravelling.
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Danth
Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:55 am
I pick Paladin and tank because that's what I do in all of these online RPG's. My WoW character, created on launch day, was intended to be a tank right from the start, as I always am (it *was* what the class was originally intended for, after all!). Instead of accepting a job I loathe, I simply did not subscribe to WoW during the timeframe when Paladins weren't viable as tanks--there are other games out there.

For my part, I don't consider Holy Paladins to be Paladins at all. Rather, they're confused, mis-named Clerics. As far as I'm concerned, that entire tree ought to be rebuilt from the ground up with a purpose other than main healing in mind. Paladins aren't main healers. Retribution players are the fanatics of the Paladin community, both in concept and in terms of the zeal they show for their chosen role. I don't share their enthusiasm for hitting things with large hammers, but I respect them.

I don't believe our community requires the solidarity and baseline capability you seek, at least not within the current broad scope of the existing Paladin class. The jobs are so fundamentally different that we're less concerned about each other than about the other classes that share our respective roles. We protection Paladins (aka, the One Real Paladin) concern ourselves more with Warriors/Feral Druids/etc. The 'Clerics' concern themselves mainly with the other healers. Having more baseline abilities wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't help much either--we'll still do the jobs we talent for. I do support your suggestion, however, if it means the reconstruction of the Holy tree and the removal of main healing as a design role. Rebuild our trees in a similar manner of the DK--with each tree containing tank and damage talents--and I'd be a happy camper.

Barring such wishful thinking, I'll satisfy myself if just one tree (protection) remains decent.

Danth
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70 Paladin, Medivh server
Zekeris
Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:07 am
Definetly a well thought of post. I registered just to suggest to post this on the pally forums + beta paladin forums.
Omatre
Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:55 am
I'll disagree with this statement:
Vanifae
Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:29 am
I don't agree because I think the original poster has written a well post but it really does not hit upon anything unique to paladins. All classes that hve wildly different specs need to some extent different kinds of gear.

You can't melee DPS as a resto shaman using Enhancement gear with any kind of capability; you can't effectively tank raid content in Resto Druid gear for any reasonable amount of time unless it is insignificant trash, and even warriors need two sets of gear to tank or dps effectively though this will be less so in the expansion. Paladins by extension can dps satisfactorily in prot gear, and could tank satisfactorily in ret gear... both specs can heal to some extent and have talents to help this short coming.

Is there a divide, perhaps but I think the original post glosses over the fact that every class with multiple role has some distinction and friction to some extent. Human nature to champion your role above the others.

Interesting post but I have to disagree.
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Danth
Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:37 pm
I dish out good-natured ribbing and accept it in kind. However, I'm no Warrior--my rage bar is blue, and I'm not all grubby and dirty like they are.

Warcraft 3 failed to hold my interest and Warcraft 'lore' in general doesn't matter to me a whole heck of a lot. I don't think it much matters to Blizzard, either--this is the game with Holy Wind Chimes, remember. Blizzard can call a duck a rabbit, but I'll go on calling it a duck. A healer in plate is a Cleric; a defensive, front-line holy warrior is a Paladin. My wife tells me that I'm immensely stubborn and I'm not inclined to disagree with her on that point.

More seriously, the 'class divide' exists because Blizzard used talents to fix a poorly-designed, unfinished class. I know, because I've been there; I was one of the few who made the class work as a tank back when we had Seal of Fury and a 21/21 split talent build (with a few left over) was the optimal talent setup. Over time, the Paladin has accumulated multiple roles as a legacy of its repeated changes. A player who enjoys one role might not give a hoot about the other roles the class may perform. For example, I care about tanking as a Paladin, and nothing else. Stop thinking of those other players as playing the same class and you'll see that, in truth, there is no class divide--just the same 'role divide' that always exists in these kinds of games. Sure, I want the Holy tree removed in its current incarnation--but I also want to see a real Cleric added in place of it. Of course that won't happen, but it'd be better for all involved if it did.

More realistically within the existing framework of Warcraft, I figure that placing X talent points in a tree (let's say 51) should re-name the class. For Paladin, you'd have Cleric/Knight/Crusader or something similar, and so on for all classes. The different trees perform different jobs as it is. Groups don't ordinarily invite a Holy Paladin to do the same job as a Protection Paladin. Even within the single-role classes, such as Rogues, a Combat Rogue has a different 'style' than an Assassin or whatnot. Take the talent system to its logical conclusion of parent and sub-classes.

Danth
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70 Paladin, Medivh server
Murbella
Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:12 pm
Summary:Resentment between viable/unviable specs in old days + blizzard/player base playing off the specs against each other so they dont focus their anger against someone else + blessings being shared between specs

I think a lot of the resentment goes back to the days not so long ago when holy was the only viable raiding spec and there were constant calls for holy to be nerfed to buff prot and ret. This then basically happened and holy lost a lot of ground compared to other healers around the same time prot and (for alliance to a lesser extent) ret were made viable. This has also been a very common occurrence in our past. We've always been told that we shouldn't be as good at X because we can do Y (no matter that almost every class is a "hybrid" as well) and this was commonly replied to with "well then nerf Y so i can do X as good as you" (nerf heals so prot is better for example)

The other major issue is blessings. Warriors: you bring one or two for tanks maybe, maybe bring a fury warrior or two for dps, then maybe bring an arms if you need the debuff (yes i realize very rarely would you have this many warriors). having a prot warrior doesn't really affect your desire to have a fury warrior. Paladins are different. for paladins, i want 3 (4 max) paladins total in tbc for blessing of all combined specs. this means the specs basically have to fight each other because if i have 1 prot paladin and 2 holies, i generally dont have room for a ret paladin.

Also, i think a lot of paladins are experienced with multiple specs/roles. i've raided as holy and prot for quite a while myself and even messed around with ret a bit in raids (i'm alliance Mad ). I have gear for all 3 specs and believe it is very important for prot paladins to have a healing set for fights where they aren't tanking (heailng in good healing gear is certainly more useful than auto attacking to keep a judgement up imo)
Songblade
Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:25 pm
In every game I have ever seen that had paladins as a class in it, they have had some kind of healing capability. Even in Dungeons and Dragons, the game that most similar RPG games base things off of, the paladin has healing ability. In it's most general form, a paladin is a warrior that uses holy energy, melds fury and arms together, and uses the extra tree for healing.

A cleric is, and has always been, a very general term. It is merely an advocate of a religion. They typically wear plate armor, and wear a shield. They have subpar melee abilities for when their spells are spent, but a good portion of the time, they cast long range spells for their attacks. In addition, since it is merely an advocate of a religion, this can be for any religion, good or evil, lawful or chaotic. In essence, a cleric is closer to a mix between a shaman and a priest with plate, in that they have a choice of spells that can have anything to do with buffing party members, ensnaring enemies with roots, harming enemies with negative energy, polymorphing, and healing.

So calling a holy paladin a "cleric" is wrong in every way, because clerics are not primarily healers, they would be closer to a hybrid class than anything.

Edit: Correction on types of armor, and added in types of spells they can use.
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Jikozani
Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:28 pm
The baseline paladin is a powerful defensive class and strong buffer. Bubbles, stun, various short term blessings, some neat debuffs, the ability to offtank, offheal and of course, some very good buffs.

Unfortunately, all this is useless in a well-organised & solid group or raid. The healer(s) heal, the tank(s) hold aggro, there is no need for us to save the day. Just whacking stuff with our big mace is essentially holding the group back, because they could have better dps. We need to pick a role.

Paladins got divided when raiding started I believe. For one, we didn't have the tools to tank in a raid. But that was the least of it, since only a very small minority was interested in that. Most people rolled a paladin intending to be a melee fighter. But raids quickly realised that a paladin's damage was subpar and the way they could contribute the most would be to stand in the back and heal. Many paladins refused to do that, but also many paladins gave in, eager to get in a raid.
Initially, there was neither gear for that nor talents. Paladins would pick up cloth healing gear. Furthermore, prebc, you were pretty free to do whatever you wanted with talents. Illumination was lower, then moved up, but even that and holy power weren't really required for anything barring min/maxing for progression.
Seeing this trend, bliz slowly introduced both the gear and the talents. This is why all those who had refused to step back and heal became angry at those who accepted that role, since it was ruining the class as they had envisioned it. Inevitably, paladins were mostly divided into pvp-undergeared retri ones and prestigiously geared healer ones (who could nonetheless respec and be the envy of the former).

Personally, I enjoy all specs. I don't judge people depending on their spec. *But*, it is true that many paladins specced holy simply because of their lust for epix and those put me off.
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Songblade
Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:37 pm
But even then, this is understandable. Even though you may not mind so much, a lot of people wanted to raid in those days, and being told they either have to respec or reroll if they wanted to raid, they chose the easiest option, moving to the backlines.

By time people hit level 70, and the Burning Crusade hit, some of them had been healing so long, that they didn't know how to do anything else with the class. The class had essentially went through an overhaul. And everyone knows that paladin tanking is complicated enough that one cannot just respec one day and pick up some prot gear and suddenly know exactly how to do it. So they stayed holy, because that was all they knew how to do.
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Danth
Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:40 pm
Songblade--it seems that you have a very different RPG history than I have. When I played D&D, Clerics wore plate (late 80's/early 90's). They wore plate in the MUDs've played. They wore plate in Everquest, heck they wear it in EQ2 and in Vanguard. In all of the above-mentioned games they also functioned as main healers. Where do you get the notion that they stick to mail? I find trivia like that interesting.

Paladin healing is typically more along the lines of emergency/backup in every game I've seen save for Warcraft. Strictly speaking, it follows that pattern for 2/3 of the existing Paladin talent trees as well. Blizzard's take on the class, from my own experience, has been the oddball of the online RPG's--though I understand why Blizzard made the choices it made at various periods during Warcraft's history.

I agree with the poster above that in the old days of World of Warcraft most Paladin players seemed to view themselves as melee damage classes more than anything.

Danth
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70 Paladin, Medivh server