On Bloating and the Core Tankadin

I originally posted this on my blog, but I thought it'd repost it here where more people are likely to read it.

So with the WotLK talents starting to settle down a bit, we're getting to the point where we can start putting some serious thought into what exactly we're going to spec at 80... and as always, one of the more popular topics regarding talents is the "bloating" of the Protection tree.

I take a different perspective to the situation. I don't believe our talent tree is bloated, I think we just have a lot of really good talents to pick and choose from. To illustrate this point, I'm going to create what I consider a "base" protection spec, allowing myself only 51 points in the Protection tree, and taking only what I feel is required (possibly dumping points into talents I don't feel are 100% necessary, but I need to get deeper in the tree). I will also give a step-by-step of each choice as I make it. Once I've created a base spec, I will adapt it to different variations based on the Paladin's role in the raid.

With that, I present to you the Base Tankadin: 0/51/0

1. First tier talent, 15% Strength vs. 5% Dodge. Survivability is first priority, so I choose Anticipation.
   
2. Stoicism (and Guardian's Favor to some extent) aren't really PVE talents, so my choice is 15% Strength vs Redoubt. This is a tricky choice, since I'll need Redoubt to pick up Shield Spec (and it's a fairly solid talent on its own, most of the time). However, since 15% Strength will increase my block value to some degree (remember, we're talking about level 80 itemization here) as well as threat from all of my other abilities, I'm going to lean toward ignoring Redoubt for the time being and sticking with Divine Strength.
   
3. Largely a no brainer here, I consider all three available 3rd-tier talents to be important. Three points in Imp RF, one point in Blessing of Kings (remember, most level 80 Holy and Ret Pallies will probably not take it), and the remaining 3rd-tier point into Toughness.
   
4. Divine Guardian, Imp HoJ, and Imp Devotion Aura become available. Imp Devotion Aura gives a great bonus to group content for only 3 points, so I'll definitely pick that up. Remaining two points go into Toughness.
   
5. Blessing of Sanctuary is (unfortunately) required for anything deeper in the tree. Oh well, it's worth the one point. Remaining four points go into filling out Toughness, and the only situational choice that's required to get down the tree - two points in Reckoning, two points in Spell Warding, or two points somewhere else. I chose Reckoning, but feel free to toss those anywhere.
   
6. Two points in Sacred Duty, at 3% Stamina per point you can't really turn that down. Remaining three into 1h Specialization.
   
7. One point into Holy Shield. With Wrath changes, Improved Holy Shield only seems really necessary situationally, so we'll skip it for now. Remaining four points go into Ardent Defender (or you could flesh out 1h spec and Reckoning if you'd prefer)
   
8. Tier 8 is an easy choice, because not only is there only one 8th-tier talent but it is also ridiculously good. All five points go into Combat Expertise.
   
9. One point into Avenger's Shield, three points into Touched by the Light. Remaining point goes into Ardent Defender (or wherever).
   
10. Five talent points worth of talents in Tier 10. Judgements of the Just is a no-brainer, it's just too good. Shield of the Templar seems good as well just for the Shield of Righteousness bonus, but that could change depending on how everything works out at 80. We'll have to wait and see there. If you like you can put those 3 points somewhere else.
    
11. Hammer of the Righteous. Congratulations, you're a 51-point Protection Paladin, and you've still got 20 points to spare.

But what am I missing?

Redoubt & Shield Specialization: 8 talent points for 30% Block Value doesn't seem worth it, even if they fix it from it's currently bugged status (not increasing block value gained from strength). Redoubt is a great AOE tanking talent, but since it's becoming clear that we're not the only option for an AOE tank in Wrath (and can most likely function fine without it), I don't consider it a requirement.

Divine Guardian: With the change to Divine Protection, I don't consider this talent worth working into a primary build. I don't want to nerf my Shield Wall.

Spell Warding: Never really been important for 5/10 mans, and with Death Knights in the game, we're now the 3rd choice for spell damage-heavy tanking in 25 mans. Some people will want it depending on your situation, but I don't consider it necessary.

And... that's about it. You're missing one AOE tanking talent, one situational/probably not worth it talent, and one spell mitigation talent from what most would call the "required" build.

Now you can adapt this base build to pretty much any situation. AOE tank/offtank? Pick up Redoubt, Shield Spec, Guarded by the Light, Benediction, Imp Judgement, Imp Holy Shield, and another point in 1h spec. Offtank/Healer? Toss the remaining points in Holy (some decent tanking-related options there as well). 100% Main Tankadin? Put 12 in Ret and spread the rest around the Prot tree where you like them.

My point in all of this is don't misconstrue flexibility as bloat. You don't *need* every single tanking-related talent. Just worry about fitting your build to what you do the most.
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Where did I leave my book of matches?

i'm with ya. the only 'bloat' to me is redundant talents, like 3 talents for ret aura, two for holy shield on top of actually getting it, etc. those could be condensed. they did state they want us to make choices, so i guess for our prot its choosing between mitigation or more threat/mana conservation (ie skipping 8 points for redoubt -> shield spec)

for 2/5 reckoning and 3/5 1h spec, are you viewing that as like a combined 5% threat increase sort of?
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Redoubt is only useless in non-AoE situations if they itemize our gear like they have in TBC (as to reach "uncrushability"). I think to state that it's going to be useless (8 talent points for 30 block value) is premature. Other than that I pretty much agree with the analysis. As far as bloat, it really depends all upon how much threat we need. If we're doing plenty of threat at 80, then we have several places we can sacrifice points.
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Stormreaver US

Modus | Governor

if you skip those 8 points you also have a lot more choices in holy/ret, ie makes getting both deflection and seals of the pure a lot more easier if you want them. heck you could also get unyielding faith if you wanted and put 1 point into imp shield and imp judgment

btw is holy shield actually 6 charges now but just not reflected in the beta yet? i'm reading conflicting things from sources
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See the thing about redoubt is that pre sunwell, its not that great except in very limited situations. As a main tank in sunwell, you're literally nerfed by 25% avoidance, but bosses no longer crush. So an approximate 70% total avoidance means redoubt has a larger chance to proc, and usually makes up about 5% to 7% of my total avoidance on most fights. Its useful, the only issue is that Shield Spec has lost its luster now that it doesn't scale with the new itemization as well. What I mean by this is that Str now gives block value at a ratio of 2 to 1, but shield spec doesn't count that.

Removing Shield spec, combining spell warding with imp rf, and changing BoSanc into a passive 10% block value increase from items (including the BV from str) as well as passive mana regen on damage caused (instead of damage mitigated) would go a long way in scaling the mana regen, off tank capabilities, and slimming the bloat in the early parts of the tree.

1 handed weapon spec combined with divine reckoning, or ardent defender would aid in slimming the bottom. The number of 5 pointers later in Prot is a big issue, consolidation and limiting the points required would aid.

All of these are suggestions that should, in the long run, NOT be considered all at once, but are meant to be considered separately in order to limit the potential downfalls inherent with dropping so much weight right away.

they have pills for bloating fyi

id like to see some slimming down of prot. maybe jenny craig or that nutrisystem you see on TV. rolling talents into other talents would suffice with me
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I agree with your reasoning that some of the excess in the Protection talent tree can be considered as flexibility. Except there are still some talents that are based around the same or similar improvements. If these were to be merged, it would allow for a lot more choices that could further go toward flexibility, instead of using your additional points to gain more of the same benefits.

Improved Righteous Fury and Spell Warding. Remove Spell Warding, put Improved Righteous Fury in its place and make it either 3/6/10% or 5/10% Mitigation for all damage. That would save 2 or 3 pts.

Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise. Both give +% increases to Stamina. These could be rolled together and free up another 2 pts.

So right there you could save a total of 5 points. I think that would be acceptable.

The final change would be to unlink Redoubt and Shield Specialization.

My thoughts are similar to your Lore. Here is the lvl 80 main tank spec I have my eyes on (given no major changes of course):

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents2.html?tal=05000000000000000000000000550001305003013250155310321052050000000000000000000000
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I personally might rather have two in spell warding than reckoning, but I've never had reckoning, either.
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Well for me, if the current talent trees on WoW and Euro are correct I'll be taking Divine Guardian when it only affects DS just to have for those fights where I'll be offtanking. I'm a GM/one of the main tanks for my guild and I'll be going with http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents2.html?tal=05000000000000000000000000550001305203010251155312321050050000000000000000000000 come the expansion I think, barring them changing imp shield spec. and me seeing how the itemization rolls out at the 80 instance level.

I'll miss reckoning i think but I just can't justify it when I'll be mostly main tanking fights.
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Divine Guardian only affects Divine Shield now, not Divine Protection - at least according to http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents2.html

Or have I missed something there?

My point there being that would it perhaps be useful if it doesn't mess up our shield wall.
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