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Maintankadin

One thing that has been bugging me recently...

Songblade
Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:52 pm
Hmmm, I just took a look in my 3.5 Player's Handbook, and it seems you are right, I will edit the post.

However, that does not make my point invalid that in D&D clerics were not necessarily healers. In 3.5, they were the only class capable of healing well save for druids, but there were actually clerics (specifically evil ones) that weren't even capable of healing at all, unless you consider shooting a bolt of unholy energy at an undead to healing actual "healing."
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Karock
Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:49 pm
You only think other classes aren't "divided" because you don't have intimate knowledge of that class. There is no such thing as what you're talking about.
Velgarn
Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:50 am
Well, not speaking on the divided community aspect of the post, the rest I do agree with. Just last night I was thinking the biggest problem with paladins is that changes to balance one tree have massive ramifications for other trees (ex. reducing SoV/SoR coefficients made ret more balanced, slightly effected prot, and really hurt holy DPS).

I am a firm believer that the paladin class should have the baseline tools to do every job built into their class, and each spec should add strength to that. Tanking as holy/ret should be possible, at least in 5 mans, maybe in 10 mans too as an OT for trash.

Baseline Abilities:
1) Make Crusader Strike a baseline ability.
2) Make Shield of Righteouness a baseline ability.
3) Make Holy Shield a baseline ability and remove the charges.*
4) Make Avenger Shield baseline. Possibly change the slow to a silence.
5) Turn Righteous Fury into 'defensive stance' - 10% reduction, X% threat of all types boost. **
6) Replace Blessing of Sanctuary with Hand of Sanctuary, same spell except now I can cast Kings on myself AND Hand of Sanctuary. Problem solved.
* You will see why below.
** Preferably, non-dispelable self-buff that lasts until we remove it and persists through death.

I do not mind amazing cool talents deep in a tree (ex. Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Devestate). Crusader strike lost its unique 'strike'ness and now feels like a talented Heroic Strike. In my opinion, it should be available to all specs and potentially modified by the spec to feel like a MS, BT, etc. a powerful tool to use that adds interesting fun stuff, while still doing damage. A change in a trees specific ability, does not effect the other trees, making balancing slightly easier.

Protection:
1) Righteous Crusader Strike - Extra 1h damage, hits multiple targets - replacing Hammer of the Righteous.
2) Spell Shield - Allowing a X% of block value to apply to spell damage.
3) Absorbing Shield - Holy Shield now has 3 charges, reduces all spell damage by 30% per charge until all charges are diminished. *
4) Replace Imp. Righteous Fury with Redoubt since the DR should be baseline, and Redoubt is good for off-spec AoE tanks.

* A Paladin themed 'Spell Reflect'. Not as awesome for a single spell, but can effect more spells, charges and % could be modified. Could also applied to "Sacred Shield" instead, allowing it to be cast on other single targets at a time. Could also potentially prevent silence/fear 'if necessary'.

This keeps protection paladins as a holy warrior, and adds some of the abilities they can still use/'need' to the spec. It allows us to also have some form of spell mitigation besides 'auras'. Protection is mostly solid [mitigation and itemization issues aside].

Retribution:
1) Give Retribution Vengeful Crusader Strike. Add some utility or other interesting effect(s) to it (ex. interrupt, the vindication talent, reduced hit, holy 'hemorrhage', holy 'stormstrike', etc, or something new and cool).

If rets DPS is good... I can't think of much else. They have mana and hp regen to party members, do solid damage, and provide CC. Sounds like every other DPS class in the game. ^5 Blizzard.

Holy:
1) Mark of Light - Marks the target as the reciever of the light causing your abilities to heal the marked target.
2) Regenerating Crusader Strike - gives CS X% spell power counts as weapon damage, and causing the next 'damaging ability'* to heal the target(s) for the amount of damage dealt by the Crusader Strike.
3) Shield of Holy Light - Shield of Righteousness damage treats X% of spell power as block value, and heals your Mark of Light for Y% of damage dealt by Shield of Righteousness.
4) Improved Sacred Shield - has X% chance to refresh Shield of Righteousness cooldown and increase the healing dealt on next use by Y%.
5) Regenerating Consecration - X% of damage dealt heals all friendly targets within the consecration.
6) Field of Light - Increase healing done by consecration by X% and increase its AoE by 300%. Y min cooldown.
7) Enlightened Judgements - Your judgement spells heal your Mark of Light for X% of damage dealt.
Cool Judgements of the Pure - Your judgement spells cause X% of damage dealt by Seal of Righteousness to heal your Mark of Light.
9) Sacred Avengers Shield - Your avengers shield applies sacred shield to as many raid members as it deals damage too. **
10) Inspiring Light - Critical healing effects cause your target to have +X% armor.

* read ANYTHING that can deal damage, especially AoE abilities. Gives holy a nice AoE healing spell that isn't a clone of chain lightning, tranquility, etc.
** Lowest HP first of course.

I like the idea of us being 'holy warriors'. If blizzard wants us to heal, why not let us be interesting and unique? We heal our friends by beating the hell out of our enemies. Twisted Evil The idea would be to tune the damage to be about 2/3 of a DPS class - like they are attempting to do for tanks. Then, allow our abilities to heal for a X% of our damage, whatever is generally equivalent of an actual healer, perhaps a bit lower. [As for PvP, a lot of stuff could be dispelable and things to prevent it from being too over powered.]

This really opens up healing making it quite interesting. As for MT healing, we'd be constantly be using 1 CS / 1-2 ShoR every 6 seconds, leaving us time to weave in Judgement, AS, maybe FoL or instant Holy Light. Maybe consecrate if there is enough AoE, and when AoE goes wrong wings + tranquilicrate. Laughing We would then have a ton of things to do. It would be button mashing healing goodness with lots of awesome flavor and face smashyness.

We would also likely be the only healer that WANTS to be in melee range. Laughing I also enjoy the fact that the 'best aoe tank' would actually be a good aoe healer for a change.

On a side note: the holy idea really does kinda go back to the old idea of talents completely changing how you play the class... but still, it would be 100x cooler than FoL spammage.
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Seraphia
Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:09 am
One of the reasons why someone might think Druids 'get along' with each other, is the simple fact Druid specs are almost entirely exclusive of each other. The Base mechanics do not cross over.


Compare that to Paladins, where all Paladin abilities are used by all types of Paladins all the time. That's why Paladins seem to be at each others throat. A good example of this is Paladin Mana.


All Paladins have Mana.

Holy Paladins need large mana pools and steady constant regen.

Protection Paladins need smaller mana pools and regen to match our threat costs and survival needs.

Retribution Paladins need mana pools directly linked to the amount of DPS they can push and how active their cycle is.


The base requirement of mana is UNIVERSAL but the means and needs of the regeneration have little to not actual overlap. AKA: Conflict!



Druids in the same situation? Bears use rage, Cats use Energy, Balance/Resto use the same kind of Mana. There is no conflict of interests.

It is easy to get along with someone who has no effect on you either way. AKA: Indifference. Laughing
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-Seraphia <Slap in the Face> : Doomhammer
Lumennon
Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:13 am
Sorry, but I think that in this thread, there has been made a lot of fuss about nothing.

Karock
Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:29 pm
Oh they definitely are.

PvE shadow priest sit on their high horse and treat PvP shadow priest like trash while PvP shadow priest return in kind. Not every priest just like not every paladin.

As far as racials go you HAVE to be joking. I can't believe anyone, ANYONE with any experience with priest racials can claim priest aren't venomous and hateful toward one another. I, personally, have been insulted, verbally spit on and generally been made out as a horrible person simply for having been a dwarf priest for years. That's right, several years straight even from very "prominent" members of the so-called priest community. What's more I was hardly alone, in fact any dwarf was treated such.

In kind many dwarves either attacked or retaliated against other alliance priest over the division (in no way am I saying all of the hate was one sided).
Candiru
Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:26 am
Deathknights were re-animated bodies filled with the souls of orcs who rode around casting powerful spells trying to stay away from the paladins, who could inst-agib them with two clicks. Exocrism-HOOOO!

No, I haven't played WC3.

Warlocks got the ogre-mage eye of grillock, where has our Clairvoyance spell gone? Sad
Also, we should do more damage than warriors, since Paladin's are upgraded Knights, while warriors are footman. Exorcism draining enough mana to 1-shot any undead would be funny though, like in WC2.
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