Defender's Code vs. Furnace Stone

I look at cloaks when making a similar armor/stamina decision.

Assuming you wear this: Cloak of the Shadowed Sun

Why would you consider this: Saronite Animus Cloak
Or this: Cloak of the Iron Council
Or this: Cloak of the Makers

For those that seriously undervalue armor, the Saronite Cloak:

• Increases defense rating (+avoidance, likely)
• Replaces dodge with parry (-avoidance)
• Lowers strength (-block value)
• Increases hit rating (+threat, maybe)
• Adds 4 stamina.
• Lowers armor by 335

The Cloak of the Iron Council:

• Increases defense rating (+avoidance, likely)
• Replaces dodge with block (-avoidance)
• Lowers strength (-block value)
• Increases expertise (+threat, maybe)
• Adds 6 stamina
• Lowers armor by 335

People who glances at either piece, note the iLvl and note the stamina increase, and pick one, are doing themselves and their raid a disservice. Both are downgrades from the Cloak of the Shadowed Sun, because of it's healthy, generous armor, not to mention the dubious nature of the avoidance differences.

For the Cloak of the Makers:

• Lowers strength (-block value)
• Increases defense rating (+avoidance)
• Increases dodge rating (+avoidance)
• Adds hit rating (+threat, maybe)
• Adds 10 stamina
• Lowers armor by 333

This is a good piece, with overall well-rounded stats, yeah. But don't for a moment think it's a better effective health piece than the Cloak of the Shadowed Sun. It's not. Use it in an effective health set if the dodge/defense rating let you swap out other gear and have more overall stamina/armor, but as a 1-for-1 replacement it's a downgrade.

That's the problem with just saying stamina is better than armor. It's not that simple, and it leads to people making poor choices about their gear. And, as I've said before, I don't think we on Maintankadin should be teaching people to make simple comparisons that lead to poor choices.

Don't forget to apply your modifiers when discussing gearing and enchantments. This is mostly between Stamina and Armor, but I often see people compare things like 10 Parry Rating to 18 Stamina (in the context of a glove enchantment) when really it's more stamina than that when you add in modifiers. It applies a little here, too, though because the ~320 Stamina you get from dual stamina trinkets is actually a bit more than that once you add in Kings and Sacred Duty. The armor (afaik) would receive the 10% bonus from toughness and cause Inspiration and Ancestral Fortitude to be a tiny bit stronger while theyr'e up.

I haven't looked into it in a while, so I don't remember the modifier for Stamina off the top of my head. I see 8% from Sacred Duty, 6% from Combat Expertise, and 10% from Kings. If that's right (and they stack multiplicatively) then that's 1.08 * 1.06 * 1.1 * 320, or 403 Stamina.

Halnoth wrote:In this whole fight of armor vs stamina... how come no one is addressing the AD boosts here? The more sta you can stack the greater the AD threshhold. Before Maji jumps all over this, I am not saying you should neglect armor when choosing other gear... we are talking about trinkets here. IMHO double sta trinkets would be hands down better for a paladin tank.

It depends on the fight -- specifically the size of the incoming hits. Raising your AD range by 2030hp (counting kings) at the expense of 2.67% avoidance (in the case of comparing Heart of Iron vs the Furnace Stone, for example) isn't necessarily worthwhile when you're getting hit for more than your AD threshold a pop.

The primary problem with AD in Ulduar is that it's very often leapfrogged by the heavy hitters in Ulduar.

Raidbuffed I'm sitting around 43.3k hp, 28k armor. My AD threshold is 15k.

Razorscale hits for an average of 25k.
Ignis hits for an average of 21k.
XT hits for an average of 13k.
Steelbreaker hits for an average of 14k.
Kologarn hits for an average of 15k.
Auriaya hits for an average of 12k.
Hodir hits for an average of 17k.
Thorim's Unbalancing Strike hits for an average of 13k, melee for around 12k.
General hits for an average of 16k.

All of these bosses can and do hit for more than my AD threshold. This is why we don't spend much time talking about AD anymore. Does this mean you shouldn't still have it? No -- it may still save your bacon if several factors come into play. Also, there's nowhere else those points are urgently needed. But eventually people may start stealing points from AD to fuel funtime builds -- I did this a lot in TBC, myself.

But for now -- stacking stam for the sake of AD at the expense of avoidance is unwise for Ulduar. It'll work well enough in Naxx, where things hit weakly enough (well under 10k a hit) such that AD is amazing, especially if you're running light on healers.

That being said, I confess that I am wearing an awful lot of stamina, and use the Crab+HoI for trinkets (until f'ing 10.Yogg drops the Seal). But I still make sure I maintain at least 55% DPM unbuffed.

Again, a lot of things depend on your gear level, your progression level, and the fight.

fuzzygeek wrote:All of these bosses can and do hit for more than my AD threshold.

If 35% of your health is 15,001 HP (for simplicity's sake), then something hitting for 16k could still be in your AD range. If you're at 15,000 HP and are hit for 16k, it'll be reduced by 30% to 11.2k and you'd live. So for a boss that hits for 16k, wouldn't your AD threshold be between 11.2k and 15k?

EDIT: In fact, the only way it'd be 100% useless is if the boss would kill you even if you were at 34.99% and with the 30% damage reduction. If your 35% was at 15,001 (as used above), then that boss would have to be hitting for at least 21.4k, because 21,400 x 0.70 is ~15k.

EDIT2: Oh, and this is ignoring AD's usefulness with cooldowns.

EDIT3: Oh, you say "can." Well yeah, a lot of them can. I still like the talent, though.

moduspwnens wrote:

fuzzygeek wrote:All of these bosses can and do hit for more than my AD threshold.

If 35% of your health is 15,001 HP (for simplicity's sake), then something hitting for 16k could still be in your AD range. If you're at 15,000 HP and are hit for 16k, it'll be reduced by 30% to 11.2k and you'd live. So for a boss that hits for 16k, wouldn't your AD threshold be between 11.2k and 15k?

Yes, which is why AD is still worthwhile, but too many things have to happen in order for AD to kick in, which is why I don't care very much for it as a mechanic in fights with huge incoming hits.

On average, some of those bosses do hit slightly under my AD threshold -- but their max hits are almost all above the threshold, which is why I worded it as "can and do hit." And even if AD saves you on that one hit, unless you get healed up quickly, you probably won't survive a second hit in a worst-case scenario.

In Naxx, where, say, Patchwerk hits the MT for an average of 8k, I could take almost three hits after dropping under the AD range (assuming 15k range, 8k hit reduced to 5.6k). That's very obviously powerful. AD vs 20k hits -- not so much.

Edit

EDIT3: Oh, you say "can." Well yeah, a lot of them can. I still like the talent, though.

I agree; I still like it, even if it has major weaknesses in current end-game content and encounter design. I still think its synergy with the Commendation was amazing.

But the poster I was replying to was wondering why we don't talk about stam stacking specifically for the sake of AD. I think a lot of us take AD as frosting on the cake: it's nice, but isn't going to contribute much to the bulk of a steak and potatoes meal.

Besides, pie's better.

fuzzygeek wrote:But the poster I was replying to was wondering why we don't talk about stam stacking specifically for the sake of AD. I think a lot of us take AD as frosting on the cake: it's nice, but isn't going to contribute much to the bulk of a steak and potatoes meal.

Besides, pie's better.

I see this a lot, its really hard to make a call on it because yes stacking stamina does increase your AD range so it is common to speak about the two together as there is obviously a synergy there BUT this isn't why you need to stack stamina for Ulduar and to say that is the reason why you do need to stack stamina is wrong.

As fuzzygeek says, AD bonuses are icing/frosting on the cake and nothing more.

I feel like we are going in circles with this one people.

Barathorn

Thorim's Unbalancing Strike hits for an average of 13k, melee for around 12k.

THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Unbalancing Strike hits for 200% weapon damage.

fuzzygeek wrote:

moduspwnens wrote:

fuzzygeek wrote:But the poster I was replying to was wondering why we don't talk about stam stacking specifically for the sake of AD. I think a lot of us take AD as frosting on the cake: it's nice, but isn't going to contribute much to the bulk of a steak and potatoes meal.

Besides, pie's better.

Ahh but I didn't need a lesson in it lol, just saying that when comparing sta trinkets vs the afforementioned dodge and armor trinkets it is something that should be considered along with everything. Threat + EH + cake frosting = yummy.

Also, at the people posting things like cloaks yada yada, this thread is concerning two very specific trinkets and could reasonably be broadened to include other trinket options but I don't see why it is relevent to yammer on about cloaks or other pieces of gear. Anyone that takes every piece of gear as an upgrade solely based on the sta increase is a fool, other things should most definately be considered. However, and again, that being said I can't see how the two sta trinkets aren't better in those slots. If we were talking about a trinket that gave 1.5k armor with some dodge use or something I can see it but 850 vs even 111 sta? Come on now.

Also as an aside, why even mention the 55%? Especially in regards to ulduar 25man? You should already have your 55% and probably be block cap'd without trying too hard, hell I am right now and I am still in mostly naxx 25. If we were sitting here talking about 10m naxx or heroics then sure but come on.

One thing I love about the furnace stone is that it very nicely puts me at the armor cap when indestructible potion is up and reduces inc dmg by a lot. Tanking Thorim at the very end and popping this trinket + DP = I live when UB hits me as opposed to Wait...I remember you...from Brutallus and the ROFLSTOMP!

What some people fail to realize is that armor becomes better and better the more hp you have and the converse is true.

imo comparing these two trinkets is like comparing apples with oranges

Furnance Stone = Use for Predictable heavy damage e.g. General / Thorim

Defender's Code = Use as an "oh shit" button e.g. Every situation where the damage isn't predictable


To compare apples with apples:

Heart of Iron / Royal Seal of King Llane / Defender's Code = Use as an "oh shit" button e.g. Every situation where the damage isn't predictable

Although whether you use Royal Seal of King Llane or Defender's code as your standard trinkets, would depend on your gear (I think Heart of Iron is definitely better than the other two), and on whether you macro to /use both trinkets at once or not (Since if you do, and use both dodge trinkets it's more diminishing returns)

Digren wrote:This is a good piece, with overall well-rounded stats, yeah. But don't for a moment think it's a better effective health piece than the Cloak of the Shadowed Sun. It's not. Use it in an effective health set if the dodge/defense rating let you swap out other gear and have more overall stamina/armor, but as a 1-for-1 replacement it's a downgrade.

That's the problem with just saying stamina is better than armor. It's not that simple, and it leads to people making poor choices about their gear. And, as I've said before, I don't think we on Maintankadin should be teaching people to make simple comparisons that lead to poor choices.

If we can allow people to at least leave some things implicit in their statements, it's generally true though. Just like Str is our best threat stat but you wouldn't "allow" someone to just say Str > expertise because there are corner cases or extremes where it's not true.

Generally speaking, all of us get more net effective health from stamina than armor, given equivalent budgets. I get more EH and total survivability from my sonic booster's stamina than a defender's code. If armor gems were available, stamina gems would still provide more survivability and EH for a general gearing method that didn't somehow trade armor for stamina elsewhere (by using lower ilvl gear with more stamina?) .

Now, there's something to be said for actual mitigation via armor instead of just damage soaking via stamina, even if it's theoretically weaker for survivability. Of course there's also something to be said for nearly every fight involving some amount of damage not mitigated by armor. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone's gearing that made armor stronger than stamina given an equal budget. Especially once you factor in temporary armor buffs like inspiration or indestructible pots. With my 27,000 armor base, I'd need something like 47,000 hps to balance them out budget-wise. I doubt I could reach 47,000 hps at all, but even if I could it'd take a lot of gear upgrades that would push my armor higher. Once you factor in (imp) devo aura and inspiration, "stamina > armor (given equal budgets and for effective health)".

OTOH, you're rarely trading a legitimate amount of stamina for armor, or vice versa. Bonus armor on gear comes at the expense of avoidance or threat, so in most cases the best EH choice is pretty clear. Something like this for a decent hitter in some reasonable balance of armor and stamina.

-- Interestingly, if I compare an EH set to a purely armor-driven set, the difference is roughly 2k armor vs. 9k hps fully buffed.

Macktruck wrote:One thing I love about the furnace stone is that it very nicely puts me at the armor cap when indestructible potion is up and reduces inc dmg by a lot.

You are able to get to 49,905 armor? I'd really like to see that.

For referance
The armor caps for various attackers are as follows:

70 31,672
71 33,075
72 34,477
73 35,880
80 45,697
83 49,905

I believe it. I've hit 38k armor with inspiration up without the additional 8.6k from trinket + pot and and a thousand or so extra from high armor pieces I don't have and higher armor from higher ilvl gear I could see getting damn close if not there. Also I'm not sure if I had stoneskin totem on when I took that measurement which would clinch it.

Salamandra wrote:

Thorim's Unbalancing Strike hits for an average of 13k, melee for around 12k.

THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Unbalancing Strike hits for 200% weapon damage.

Unbalancing Strike is rather predictable. If you're using an external or internal cool down prior to each strike, then this figure makes a bit more sense.

Nadir wrote:Unbalancing Strike is rather predictable. If you're using an external or internal cool down prior to each strike, then this figure makes a bit more sense.

That's probably it; I took my numbers from a WWS parse of last raid, and didn't think to take CDs into account. So, all those numbers are very likely actually higher, which doesn't change the point very much.