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Arms warriors in 25 mans

Magnusharkov
Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:08 am

Arms warriors in 25 mans

I know a while back I read some really good information on arms warriors being viable in 25 mans. I believe it was Splug who was talking at length about it but I can't seem to find the thread again.

Can anyone post or link me to some information on what spec and gear an arms warrior would need for 25 mans and what kind of DPS they would be expected to hit?
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Sabindeus
Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:13 am
this seems horribly off topic. But!

This is an excerpt from Jonthrei's Guide to Warrior DPS, which he wrote for my guild. Jonthrei is one of the best warriors I've ever had the privilege to play alongside, and one of the most annoying and conceited bastards I've ever had in a guild. But despite that he's still fantastic when he decides to be serious.


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Mortal Strike Spec
MS is not technically a DPS spec, and the purest PvP setups aren't very capable DPS-wise. I'll start off with how to gear a MS spec warrior.

Gearing
When selecting a weapon, slower = better, *especially* for Improved Slam specs because Improved Slam ignores AP normalization, being a non-instant (but very close to it) attack. The primary stats for gearing a MS warrior for PvE DPS are Strength/AP and Crit Rating. You can never have too much of either. You should pretty much ignore stamina on DPS gear, but that should be a given. Remember: Strength is more desireable than an equal amount of AP simply because it is modified by Blessing of Kings, while AP isn't. The conversion rates are 1 Strength = 2 AP, and 22.1 Critical Strike Rating = 1% Crit. After Strength and Crit, you'll want a decent chunk of Hit gear. IIRC, the miss rate against a raid boss while using a 2her is near 9%, so you'll want about 9% +hit, passing it by a little does not hurt, and remember its impossible to completely eliminate the chance to miss but you can take it to a negligible level (<0.1%). The conversion rate for hit is 15.8 Hit Rating = +1% Hit. There is one more stat that really helps for 2h DPS and that is Haste - Activated haste buffs are always preferrable to Proc based haste buffs because they can be timed for big rage dumps along with other abilities, such as AP trinkets and Deathwish. Haste ratings are going to be changed next patch, so I don't know exactly what the numbers will look like conversion-wise.

Talent Specs
Now, I'll get into specs. Most warriors know what the cookie-cutter specs for PvP and their variations look like, so I'll just link an example of a MS spec build for 2h PvE DPS primarily.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?050050213425100200210000505010402521003000000000000000000000000000
Of course, the weapon spec varies due to preference. In this spec, you sacrifice a lot of PvP viability, so I don't expect it to be too popular in guild, but it has been proven to be able to maintain 1350-1450 DPS when decked out in Black Temple level gear by Death and Taxes (they no longer use fury warriors due to the fact they don't have Blood Frenzy.)
A more multipurpose Arms spec that doesn't sacrifice as much PvP wise is the following spec:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?050050213425100200012000505010400521200000000300000000000000000000
In a serious (hardcore) raid however, you would want at least one warrior with Blood Frenzy, one with Improved Thunder Clap, and one with Improved Demoralizing Shout. Having all three talents is a massive plus to the raid as a whole, no matter the loss to your personal DPS.

Note: Bosses become immune to demoralizing shout past 2/5 points in Improved demo shout, but it continues to work on trash. In a melee heavy raid, 5/5 demoralizing shout works if one of your warlocks uses curse of recklessness over curse of shadow and offsets the boss's AP gain while also lowering his armor by 800 (a rather significant DPS boost).


Attack Priority
Now, on to the attack priority of a raiding MS warrior. The basic attack priority is as follows:
MS > WW > All Else
This means, if you have the rage, MS. When MS is on CD, WW.
The base MS spec only goes this far for DPS, and that is why its so inefficient. NEVER use Heroic Strike unless your rage bar is sitting at 100 or is ridiculously high and you can't dump it - Heroic Strike is actually only 208 damage. the big number is the white swing +208. Because it replaces your next white swing, you generate no rage on that swing, and depending on your 2her this means you are blowing 35-60 rage for 208 damage and a shot at Impale. It would be far more efficient to simply Hamstring.
Now, for Slam, if you happen to have Improved Slam in your build. If you do, I'll explain how a Slam rotation works. First, the basics. Slam is a 0.5 second cast (talented) that gives a free swing plus 140 damage for 15 rage. However, the catch is it resets your swing timer. In order to be able to slam rotate effectively, you pretty much need a swing timer mod, because the actual animation, the numbers, and the combat log are unreliable. Swinger and Quartz are two good examples of attack timer mods.
So, to maximize Slam's potential you need to use the Slam ability *exactly* when your white attack lands, so you're only adding 0.5s to your weapon's speed and more than doubling the damage it puts out. It is important to realize that Slam also triggers a GCD when it is activated, so you have to always use Mortal Strike and Whirlwind *in the middle of your swing* so as not to cripple your rotation.
In an unlimited rage situation with no GCD management for interrupts or other situational requirements, this is what a slam rotation looks like:
White Swing > Slam > MS > White Swing > Slam > WW > White Swing > Slam > Repeat
There will be times when both MS and WW are on CD, simply do nothing in that swing, or if you happen to have Flurry in your spec, Hamstring for a shot at a crit and thus flurry.
This monumentally increases a 2h spec's ability to DPS, in endgame gear it is actually more DPS than execute spam when a boss is under 20%.
I very highly reccomend getting to about 50-60 rage before starting a slam rotation, as the rotation tends to lose small amounts of rage but can almost maintain itself over time. What I mean is if you start a slam rotation as soon as you hit, you likely wont be able to use MS and WW in it as well, but if you start it once you have a lot of rage, your average rage will remain rather steady and slowly decay. After a dozen or so rotations, you'd have to build rage up again, and then continue.
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Barathorn
Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:32 am
I know my alt certainly puts out a significant amount of damage while adding utility [although I do only use him in 5 mans] from an improved slam build.

I believe Meeks wrote an excellant guide on this a while ago, but I cannot get access to the site from work. Try googling Meeks Arms Guide.

Barathorn.
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Dragonzbane
Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:36 am
We are on Brutallis right now and have been using an arms warrior since we got to Kael. A mage switched mains to his warrior since we were mage heavy.

Our main Arms warrior:
http://armorylite.com/us/kHadgar/stian


Our 2nd prot warrior also respecs to Arms or Fury if the need arrises as he originally came to the guild as a Fury warrior with all the best gear out there.
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Magnusharkov
Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:41 am
Cheers for the info so far, keep it coming please!

Dragonz: do you happen to have a handy WWS log of your arms warrior in action?
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Atreidies
Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:56 am
Take your pic of parses

http://wwsscoreboard.com/singlechar.php?name=Hamsterboat&server=US-Turalyon&guild=Might
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Hamsterboat

Can't have useful Fury warriors without an Arms, increases ALL physical dps as well as tank threat. Also gratz to Meiem on finally being less scrub and breaking #1 warrior on WWS.

EDIT: Hamster is fury for M'uru at the moment since we drop a warrior there. Swap out his fury weapons with Cataclysm's Edge w/ Executioner, helm with t6 for 4pc and gear setup should be identical, spec is standard 33/28.
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Splug
Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:19 am
The information Sab linked looks pretty much dead on. I can't seem to load the tallent calculator links, but it basically boils down to 33/28/0, taking blood frenzy and flurry as the endpoints in both trees. Unbridled Wrath is pretty weak for 2h's, since rage isn't going to be the major concern: it'll be slam/swing timer collision, so 5/5 imp demo is pretty standard due to CoReck. Improved TC is more or less the same deal: the only alternatives are pvp skills, may as well grab it.

Atreidies
Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:27 am
Should be noted after what Splug said that near 2.5 and below swing speed Slam actually has a negative effect on your overall dps assuming rage to spam HS in it's place even if your latency allows to not interrupt a second swing.

Problem is all caused by Slam's efficiency as a skill being directly reduced with every point of haste you gain, whether that is Flurry/Heroism/Haste rating.

At a static cast speed of .5 seconds it will eat up a larger and larger percentage of your swing timer the faster you get, thus eventually being not worthwhile. At 3.5 speed, Cataclysm's Edge, Slam costs you ~14% of your swing timer, drop that to 2.5 and suddenly you're eating up 20%, a direct 20% reduction of white damage, ASSUMING that you cast Slam EXACTLY as your swing starts with 0 latency. Good example would be Hamster with both Flurry/DST procced, and throw in Haste potions and heroisms going out and the problem will become apparent very quickly. 99% of Arms warriors will never have to worry about this however =P
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Splug
Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:03 am
Also, my understanding is that melee can indeed hit cap - though dodges present an issue unless you can also cap expertise (90-something rating, I think I remember Nome throwing out). But yeah, if it's an old guide it's no big deal - the general principles are there and correct, and for more up to date info, there's tankspot.

-Splug
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Active raid character - death knight: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Spyte
(usually) prot warrior: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Splug
Splug
Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:02 pm
Hrm, I really don't have overmuch experience playing arms myself, but the fights I did do it were Naj'entus and Gorefiend, both of which involve quite a bit of arbitrary splash damage. So my observations may have been a bit biased. Let's see: you'd need 15 rage for slam, plus 30 for MS, for a total of 45 rage on the most expensive swing cycle, 40 on the WW cycle. To generate this with a single non-crit by a 3.5 speed weapon, you'd need to hit for:
45 = 3.75*x/274.7 + 3.5*3.5/2
x = 41.5*274.7/3.75 = 3040

Ooook, that's not happening. How about a crit?
45 = 3.75*x/274.7 + 7*3.5/2
x = 38*274.7/3.75 = 2784

Hrm, that might be doable with raid debuffs/buffs. Ok, so rage is going to be a problem if you don't score a crit autoattack or windfury, and is definitely a concern if you get a glance. However... as Lore's warrior friend mentioned, that +1 rage tick out of the 45 rage needed still isn't going to be huge either way. So rage is a problem, it's a bigger problem if you're behind the eightball on gear, but imp demo is still the best use for the points! Wink

-Splug
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Active raid character - death knight: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Spyte
(usually) prot warrior: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Splug