quote="Morn"]Updated my tanking sim to allow you to switch redoubt on and off. You can sort of emulate AoE tanking by using low damage, very high attackspeed (0.5 seconds or less) and check the "no crushing" box. And it turns out Redoubt makes a significant difference in that situation, without it we're even slightly worse than warriors at mitigating a lot of mobs (counterintuitive I know, but apparently the +5% chance to block warriors get makes a lot of difference). But it's still very much a niche talent.
http://rapidshare.com/files/53398161/TankingSimulation.rar.html
http://depositfiles.com/files/1674391[/quote]
I guess thats my point. With everyone so up in arms about us being niche tanks I feel that people are overzealous to find something as a scapegoat and trade it for something else hoping the problems will go away. redoubt makes an easy target since it provides no benefit whatsoever to a paladin in a maintank role.
However, the proposed change of removing redoubt for five percent chance to block does not get us out of the niche tank role either. It still leaves holy shield vastly inferior to shield block in terms of block percentage. It still does not leave enough flexibility in gearing to be able to concentrate more on stamina ,armor, or whatever you may want more of but can't use because of having to remain uncrushable.
One thing i've noticed and been jealous of is that a warrior really doesn't have to min/max each gear slot in order to be effective at what they do. They can take their tier drop, a non tier drop and still remain uncrushable and be able to take the needed hits/generate the needed threat. Most of what the warrior needs is built into the class, and as a result they have great flexibility in gear choices.
The tankadin on the other hand has some of what they need built into the class, but much more of what is needed to preform their role comes from the gear they wear. A paladin who just straps on whatever tanking drops happen to be there will fail miserably. We become locked in specific gear sets and cannot afford to swap out one thing for another, but often have to swap out several pieces of gear in order to make a tiny change possible.
Among other things, this gap needs to be closed before we can be on par in the maintank role. Five percent doesn't do that. However, we already have superior mitigation vs a warrior in an aoe tank role and removing redoubt does change that. We would have 8 blocks every 10 seconds vs 4, and they would have thunderclap.
Trading a clear advantage in one area to become mostly equals, only to fail to become an equal in another area. This is not an intelligent trade. Sounds a lot more like a rip off.
P.S. It seems I just have a different understanding of the word amazing then some others in this thread. I'll admit I think that when I get a 300 health upgrade or a 2% dodge upgrade I consider it a huge or amazing upgrade. My feeling is that in the world of tanking the differences between success and failure are often so small that the mitigation bonus redoubt provides in an aoe tanking situation qualifies as amazing.
I've seen myself drop to 300 or less health during some aoe pulls and I think.. geeze one less block or one different piece of gear and that would have been a wipe. I've seen a maintank survive the end of a fight with 1... thats right.. 1 health. (granted he went and got himself killed while marking the next pull 30 seconds later.. but still) If something can make the difference between keeping me up, or paying a repair bill then I call it amazing. Just my point of view.
_________________
Zeal without wisdom is folly
