martyr spec better? WTF?

Yes, but now you skip the 20% speed debuff on judged mobs. So you're getting a bit more hits on a boss fight..

ye but if u raid with feral druid all time u never lose anything or warrior or dk every other tanking class has debuff in good slot and doesn't lose anything for the talent while paladins lose 4% dmg increase or some think that could be useful

Except when they don't have the talent, die, let it fall off, or are attacking a different mob. I'd rather just have it and always know it's there, with no exception. Also, where does the 4% damage loss come from?

It's only two talent points in a place that's easy to get talent points. I could see your point if we could skip it for something awesome (like some new fantastic ability), but right now there's nothing worth that risk, imo.

This is the spec i use, i have no need for 5/5 Ardent Defender or Divine Guardian.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0uGtfIRhots0xbc

Our guild successfully did the Sarth zerg tonight. My spec was
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000001450053500310251533312321502300102000000000000000000
It's pretty close to what I usually take, except I normally don't have kings, and I usually have only 1/2 imp judgments and 2/2 imp blessing of might. At first glance, pursuit of justice seems useless, but it's nice for dodging flame waves. I probably could've done without judgements of the just as well, since we had warriors and death knights.

As for the fight itself, it's pretty easy once you get used to picking up Tenebron. I used two macros: /target Tenebron and /target Sarth with an Avenger's Shield in between. I also had vengenace sealed. If I try it again, I'll probably use righteousness instead (I pulled Tenebron off the taunting druid as soon as the taunt wore off).

Except when they don't have the talent, die, let it fall off, or are attacking a different mob. I'd rather just have it and always know it's there, with no exception. Also, where does the 4% damage loss come from?

From 2/3 crusade. JotJ isn't really needed currently, healers are falling asleep these days. Conviction/Crusade builds are more common than it seems you guys think.

Wolvar wrote:

Except when they don't have the talent, die, let it fall off, or are attacking a different mob. I'd rather just have it and always know it's there, with no exception. Also, where does the 4% damage loss come from?

From 2/3 crusade. JotJ isn't really needed currently, healers are falling asleep these days. Conviction/Crusade builds are more common than it seems you guys think.

I don't think they are uncommon now, they were uncommon (and rightfully so) for progression. I was considering crusade as 2% because that is the baseline amount for it. It is 4% for most of naxx, but not for drakes or dragons, so I just didn't know where that other 2% was from.