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Righteous defense and Vashj

Hydross, Lurker, Leotheras, Fathom-Lord, Tidewalker, Vashj

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Righteous defense and Vashj

Postby elson » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:35 am

My guild has been working on vashj the last couple of weeks and tonight was our best attempt on her. Down to 25%. However each time phase three starts I keep getting insta gibbed. Some of it was our healers allowing me to get pretty low right before the phase began, some of it was wearing more avoidance at the cost of stamina then I normally do. However the biggest issue is Vashj shooting me in the face right off the bat.

I think I just have bad timing and that the taunt cannot affect her while she is immune to everything else, but just checking here. The first time it happened I am pretty sure that she had already broken loose and when I taunted the naga off our MT of course I got three for the price of one. The second time though was weird. Looking at the WWS of the night, no one did anything to her before the taunt landed so I think the taunt was just a split second too late.

This is a shortened version of the log... I was in my avoidance gear so pardon the low block value :P

22:54'47.078 Ishana's Fireball crits Enchanted Elemental for 3352 Fire damage
4'47.531 Elson performs Righteous Defense
22:54'47.531 Elson performs Righteous Defense
22:54'48.000 Liioe's Melee crits Coilfang Elite for 378
8.156 Lady Vashj is afflicted by Righteous Defense
22:54'48.156 Coilfang Elite is afflicted by Righteous Defense
48.750 Lady Vashj's Shoot hits Elson for 4169 (334 blocked)
22:54'49.015 Elson dies

22:54'50.000 Revanger's Auto Shot hits Enchanted Elemental for 554
.312 Lady Vashj's Melee hits Jarhead for 5505 (563 blocked)
.375 Jarhead's Taunt resisted by Lady Vashj

There is nothing else in the full WWS log that shows people hitting her or her doing anything before RD lands and me getting shot in the face. This is the only reason I'm making this thread to begin with. I'm pretty sure RD cannot affect Vashj while she is in phase two, but once again... just checking.
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Postby nicolax » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:55 am

i am not sure i understand your question.

taunting vashj in phase 2 is not necessary at all.

i MTed her for the 5th time yesterday (still got a couple of players needing vials) and i always do the same during the transition.

- check how many nagas are up
- when 3 shields are down, remind players to tell you when they are near a pylon and able to use the core on it
- ask you OT to taunt nagas off you (if you are tanking one at that time)
- drop a consecration under vashj, ready seal of blood, holy shield, ask players to use the core on the last pylon
- healers may be busy-confused-not understanding what's going on during the transition (they slacked on our 4th kill, had to slap them a little so they wake up :roll: ), so pop an ironshield/trinket/seed or w/e that makes your life easier while nagas/strider left are killed.

she never went right away to a clothie or w/e when she breaks free after all the pylons are down with that tactic.
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Postby elson » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:15 am

nicolax wrote:i am not sure i understand your question.

taunting vashj in phase 2 is not necessary at all.

i MTed her for the 5th time yesterday (still got a couple of players needing vials) and i always do the same during the transition.

- check how many nagas are up
- when 3 shields are down, remind players to tell you when they are near a pylon and able to use the core on it
- ask you OT to taunt nagas off you (if you are tanking one at that time)
- drop a consecration under vashj, ready seal of blood, holy shield, ask players to use the core on the last pylon
- healers may be busy-confused-not understanding what's going on during the transition (they slacked on our 4th kill, had to slap them a little so they wake up :roll: ), so pop an ironshield/trinket/seed or w/e that makes your life easier while nagas/strider left are killed.

she never went right away to a clothie or w/e when she breaks free after all the pylons are down with that tactic.


No you really didn't understand my question at all. The whole point is I'm trying NOT to get Vashj on me. I am the offtank. I am trying to get the naga's off the MT so he can tank Vashj while the dps kills the nagas. The problem is two times now when I taunted the naga's off the MT, I got Vasjh as well and I think it's because I'm taunting after phase 3 starts. If taunting off the MT during phase two causes Vashj to go after me when phase three starts that becomes a large problem.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:33 am

Don't wait until the last second to grab those naga, there's just no reason not to do it in a way that gives you more breathing room. Of course, looking at that log why did you die after only a single 4k shoot? Even if you didn't have Vashj those naga would've stomped you pretty quickly when you're already that low.

Also, Vashj is completely tauntable in phase 1 and 3, so even if you grab Vashj you should only have here for a split second until the MT taunts back. That should be quite survivable (you could also pop a pocketwatch on the transition for extra security if you're nervous about it).
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Postby nicolax » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:04 am

elson wrote:
nicolax wrote:i am not sure i understand your question.

taunting vashj in phase 2 is not necessary at all.

i MTed her for the 5th time yesterday (still got a couple of players needing vials) and i always do the same during the transition.

- check how many nagas are up
- when 3 shields are down, remind players to tell you when they are near a pylon and able to use the core on it
- ask you OT to taunt nagas off you (if you are tanking one at that time)
- drop a consecration under vashj, ready seal of blood, holy shield, ask players to use the core on the last pylon
- healers may be busy-confused-not understanding what's going on during the transition (they slacked on our 4th kill, had to slap them a little so they wake up :roll: ), so pop an ironshield/trinket/seed or w/e that makes your life easier while nagas/strider left are killed.

she never went right away to a clothie or w/e when she breaks free after all the pylons are down with that tactic.


No you really didn't understand my question at all. The whole point is I'm trying NOT to get Vashj on me. I am the offtank. I am trying to get the naga's off the MT so he can tank Vashj while the dps kills the nagas. The problem is two times now when I taunted the naga's off the MT, I got Vasjh as well and I think it's because I'm taunting after phase 3 starts. If taunting off the MT during phase two causes Vashj to go after me when phase three starts that becomes a large problem.


ok i got it. well it's quite easy.

either you taunt the nagas off your MT before vashj breaks free (easiest way), either the MT continue to tank the nagas until they are killed then he taunts vashj off you.

any other way is screwed because you will taunt three mobs off him.
just watch dbm timers, talk with the players in charge of the last core, taunt all nagas off the mt before they use it, vashj free, he takes care of her, you tank the rest.

and i highly doubt that taunting nagas in phase 2 off your mt will make vashj targeting you right away at phase 3. From what i remember she always target a healer or a dps at first. And even if she happens to target you, any good tank would be ready to taunt her as soon as she breaks free.

the key of this fight is communication ! Be vocal ! Announce sides from where nagas and striders spawn, announce core. The mt is the one that tell players to use the last core when he is free and ready to pick up vashj.
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Postby elson » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:19 pm

nicolax wrote:
elson wrote:
nicolax wrote:
and i highly doubt that taunting nagas in phase 2 off your mt will make vashj targeting you right away at phase 3. From what i remember she always target a healer or a dps at first. And even if she happens to target you, any good tank would be ready to taunt her as soon as she breaks free.



This is what I needed to know, thank you. The problem was that I was so low on health I waited as long as I could to taunt the naga off the MT but the heals never came. I went about 25 seconds tanking a naga with zero heals before the core turn in happened. With lay on hands already used in a previous attempt and every other emergency button I had on cooldown there was just nothing I could do.

I've also chimed in on my guilds forums about the importance of + hit gear on this fight because you really can't afford to have taunt resists when things go bad in situations like this. As you can see our MT gets a resist in this log, and after I had been battle rezzed I had a resist as well after the MT went down. I was in my avoidance gear to help save mana during phase 2 for add tanking, so I didn't have my normal + hit amount.

The way I am planning on telling my guild to do this is to make the people with the core wait until I have both naga's and I say so in vent. I think people just got over exited seeing as we have been stuck on phase two for like three weeks and were like "ZOMG she's gonna die if we turn in the core"

Just had wanted to make sure there wasn't something buggy with RD on this fight and I am convinced now there isn't.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:33 pm

By far the bigger thing to worry about is that you went 25 seconds without a heal as one of only two tanks. That's mind-bogglingly unacceptable.
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Postby elson » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:04 pm

Dorvan wrote:By far the bigger thing to worry about is that you went 25 seconds without a heal as one of only two tanks. That's mind-bogglingly unacceptable.


Indeed :P

But these are not the type of people who won't listen/learn from previous mistakes so I'm not terribly worried about it happening again. There were at least two who had been out of range and one who was busy cleansing poisons/healing other people. During most of phase two I really wasn't taking much damage, and honestly they could afford to not heal me much for extended periods of time, especially in my avoidance set. The problem was I don't think people realized that as phase three starts I'm going to be taking a lot more damage very quickly so I need to be topped off pronto before I have to taunt.

Just people not knowing what to expect, and lack of communication I think. Nothing that can't be fixed.
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Postby Jensaarai » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:42 pm

I'm seeing a couple of things that could have happened, keep in mind this is all speculation...

Your MT had top aggro going into P2 on Vashj. For my first theory, I'm assuming this aggro list doesn't change or get wiped. So, you taunting off of him before P3 gives you his aggro from P1, and she shoots you first.

From my experiences, though, yes, she does go to a healer, so here's my second theory:

there is an aggro list built in P2, but since she's held in place by the generators, she ignores it, kinda like a fixate. Then, when she breaks, she heads for a healer, because the only thing that could cause aggro on her is global healing threat from spells.

So...your MT was standing in the middle probably most of the time, right, tanking naga and getting heals...these heals created global threat that also happened on Vashj (PoM/ES/Lifebloom/whatever)...when you taunted the naga, you got the warrior's threat list, which also included his global healing threat...so Vashj turned and hit you in the face at the beginning of P3.


My theories, take it or leave it :P I'm always the core passer, though, so I know when she's coming out, I target her, pop the last core, and spam taunt her before she hits anyone :)
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