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Dodge or Block?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Dodge or Block?

Postby Lightskin » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:18 pm

Which to go? Check my armory. I'm looking to max my HP and whatnot and still maintain uncrushable status.

I bring up this question because I didn't get a clear answer from a few posts I've seen floating around, but I'm guessing I should lean towards higher block, then dodge, then parry?


Should I balance block/dodge?
Should I get more dodge than block or vice versa?


I'm all confused now. Lol. Someone help me out, I'm a noob.

Thanks.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... =Lightskin
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Postby Aergis » Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:51 pm

Hm. This is always a bit tricky talking about. First, there are two opinions both amongst pallies and warriors. One is that avoidance > mitigation, the other is the opposite. Dodge / parry are great, they reduce damage down to 0, but it's always a chance thing. Armor / block value is great, they reduce all damage by small amounts and there is no chance.

First thing to think about is which way you want to go. Either is good, and some say a balance between the two is best. Personally, based on my experimentation and experience, I have decided to stack as much armor / block value / HP as I can and only rely on avoidance for uncrushability. I put +12 stam gems in every single slot regarless of color ( unless putting in a different color gives me the same or more stam by way of socket bonus ). I use both +armor rings, +armor cape with armor enchant, etc.

Back in the early days like march when Megor was just finishing up in Kara and I was just starting Kara, he was advocating dodge quite heavily. He was pushing 25% dodge and i think 11.5k-12k hp unbuffed. I was looking at the gear available to me, and decided to go that route too. When looking at gear like devilshark cape vs. gilded thorium cape, I would take dodge without a question. I even went so far as to put in +8 dodge into every gem slot I had ( mostly blues back then ). I ended up with 28.5% dodge 10.5k hp unbuffed. For most of kara that worked well, until we got to Nightbane. It was simply not doable. It was almost guaranteed in the course of the fight I would get a regular hit + cleave + breath, nothing dodged, and almost instantly lose 70% of my hp.

Maulgar the same thing was happening, for most of the fight it would be great, I'd hardly be taking much damage. Then out of no where, arcing smash + regular block would kill me.

So I switched back and re-gemmed everything to +12 stam, and started looking at going the armor route instead. Everything that was easy with all that dodge is still easy with all this armor / hp, but now I can actually survive the double / triple attacks of some of the bigger bosses. Maulgar's mighty blow for example was hitting me for 10k, now hits for like 7k. Arcing smash used to hit for 8k now hits for 5k, AND I have almost 3000 more hp to start with.

So my advice to anyone after that weeklong experiment is that armor + hp is safer and more effective at helping you survive bosses who you normally couldn't tank. When pushing new bosses, armor and hp is by far more reliable in helping your raid since you reduce your chance to die from spike damage dramatically. When learning the fight it is much easier for everyone to focus if the MT isn't randomly dying...


The other thing to think about though is how you are currently doing with your specific healers and bosses you are facing. Are you dying to a spike damage of 4k 6k 5k non-dodges that catch your healers off-guard ( good test for this at your gear level is the Arcane protectors after curator. They sometimes do a double maybe tripple attack. Does your hp ever drop to <30% on them? If so, that is spike damage and nightbane will likely kill you. ) If not, how is your healer mana on longer fights? Do you die because 2 of the main healers are simply oom?

Joana said it well in a previous post as well, if you are dying to spike damage you need more armor / hp / block value. If you're dying because healers are running out of mana you need more dodge / parry.
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Postby Alixander » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:03 pm

In addition to everything Aergis wrote (he finished before I could and I agree with everything he said) I will add, if you really are a number cruncher you could figure out how much mana you use in a minute and estimate how much healing you would need and base your numbers on the average amount of damage you're taking now, and how much damage you need to take in a minute's worth of healing to stay about where you mana wise. The only problem with this is as you get farther and farther in you will slowly take more and more damage per second. Continual alterations would need to be made to increase your damage reducing abilities to maintain about the area you're aiming for. It would be even more high maintenance than we already are. :lol:
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Postby Lightskin » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:09 pm

Fights I can remember where I spike, only Curator and Prince.

My health spikes, but they can maintain it, Prince sometimes shakes and I die because all heals stop on me when people transition from the infernal drops.

I was thinking about resocketing my belt with +12 stam rocks.

Just by looking at my armory, can you tell me what I need?
Should I put +12 stam on my bracers?


I think I have pretty good tanking stats but by the looks of it I need another 1-2k more HP, but I don't think it'd be attainable without a few more Kara epics.


We're into our 4th week of Kara and the belt has dropped every week.... no tanking loot :(



PS: Aergis, tell Scott asian mike said hey.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:24 am

in general there are three different ways of evaluating tanking effectiveness that people use:

1) Total Damage In

2) Time-To-Live

3) Effective Health

Total Damage In is something you'd measure with a meter, and is often quoted as how much healing you'll need. It is deceiving.
TDI neither represents how survivable you are, nor how much healing you will need to be kept alive.
It also disproportionately favors avoidance in it's analysis.

Time-To-Live is more useful.
It represents how long you can survive against a given boss without getting any healing. It also favors dodge as the most effective way of increasing your score according to this index.
Time-To-Live is a good thing to increase on encounters with significant transition points or raid incapacitations, such as your deaths on Prince because your healers were busy trying to move and heal at the same time. Warriors tend to have excellent Time-To-Live scores.

Effective Health is basically the answer to the question "how much damage can I be hit with by a single attack and still survive with 1 hit point left?" It is (your maximum health + your block value) x armor
According to this method of evaluation, whichever stat out of stamina, armor, and block value you have the least of is the one you should improve to receive the most benefit. Druids tend to have excellent Effective Health and low Time-To-Live scores.
Unless there are significant raid incapacitations of major distractions your healers are forced to deal with, it is the best way of determining your survivability as a main tank.


This all relates to encounters where you are pushing for new kills.

When you down a boss, you dont need the gear he drops to down him again. Your raid's survivability or healing or dps or technique doesnt need to get better to accomplish a rekill. It does for trying new bosses.
Effective Health is the most useful way of doing that when you cant simply conjure avoidance gear out of thin air that outgears the next encounter enough to make it possible.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:35 am

I also think its worth noting what factor various actions you make in your gearing are affecting.

Acheiving 490 Defense is an increase in your Time-To-Live score.

So is eliminating Crushing Blows, beyond simply the avoidance you aquire to do so.



Many starting tanks go into kara with 10k health and difficultly low Effective Health scores because they fixated purely on Time-to-Live.

In my opinion, in fact the route I myself took, it is better to enter kara and early 25-mans with a slightly gimped Time-To-Live in exchange for an early Effective Health lead.

In questing and leveling blues and not even a single peice of gear out of a heroic, I originally entered kara with about 479 Defense and 15.5k health raid buffed, fully crushable.
I found the possibility of spikes on the relatively soft-hitting early bosses to be far more tolerable on a high health bar than a flow of normal blocked hits on an uncrittable, uncrushable, but only 10k large, health pool.
This is the mistake I think alot of paladins make; getting too paranoid too early about crushing blows.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:02 am

Back in the early days like march when Megor was just finishing up in Kara and I was just starting Kara, he was advocating dodge quite heavily. He was pushing 25% dodge and i think 11.5k-12k hp unbuffed. I was looking at the gear available to me, and decided to go that route too. When looking at gear like devilshark cape vs. gilded thorium cape, I would take dodge without a question. I even went so far as to put in +8 dodge into every gem slot I had ( mostly blues back then ). I ended up with 28.5% dodge 10.5k hp unbuffed. For most of kara that worked well, until we got to Nightbane. It was simply not doable. It was almost guaranteed in the course of the fight I would get a regular hit + cleave + breath, nothing dodged, and almost instantly lose 70% of my hp.


If I remember correctly, the original version of the Gilded Thorium Cloak had a bit less stam. I now kind of kick myself for passing on it back then, in fact everyone passed on it each time it dropped and it was basically void crystal fodder. It hasn't dropped since it was buffed. I do have the thoriumweave cloak though for when I go for higher armor and stam, like when I'm the hateful strike eater on Gruul.
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Postby Lightskin » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:19 am

is there an addon I can download that calculates damage accumulated and whatnot and keeps track of all incoming heals/dps/dots/debuffs on me?

I don't want to rely on dodge though, because of a druid tank I healed on Gruul's and I can see what happens when you have ultra high dodge..... your health will go from 100% to 20% (not in terms of dramatization) but its hard to predict heals for a healer to heal something that doesn't get hit.

So you think dodge is more valuable than block+hp in a sense that is should come before the rest?
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:40 pm

Lightskin wrote:is there an addon I can download that calculates damage accumulated and whatnot and keeps track of all incoming heals/dps/dots/debuffs on me?

I don't want to rely on dodge though, because of a druid tank I healed on Gruul's and I can see what happens when you have ultra high dodge..... your health will go from 100% to 20% (not in terms of dramatization) but its hard to predict heals for a healer to heal something that doesn't get hit.

So you think dodge is more valuable than block+hp in a sense that is should come before the rest?


You can export your combat log using /combatlog and then upload it to the WoW Web Stats site, it shows an excellent break down of data from a fight. Here's an example of a pally tanking Gruul http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=sm ... -9991&a=30

As to your question, it can be hard to say. I tend to prefer HP/Armor/BV but, I do try to keep a reasonable amount of dodge/parry.
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Postby Lightskin » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:32 am

Ok thanks. For the sake of creating clutter with more threads on this forum caused by me, can anyone tell me if I'm ready to main tank High King in my current state? How hard does he usually hit?



maybe I should go to bed.... 7:30 am here rofl.
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Postby ulushnar » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:36 am

I used to be a total avoidance nut, but this week I've decided to experiment with more block, armor and health to see how it does. In heroics and raids I'm getting spam-healed anyway for the most part, so I might as well try to reduce the incoming damage rather than avoid it and waste healer mana.
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