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Ability Theory: "Seal of Protection"

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Postby Thels » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:18 am

corc wrote:while this might help our tanking abilities, don't you think we should look less at ourselves and towards the group?


No. If all our tanking abilities would be group applicable, you'd see every raid having 1 prot paladin in healing gear in melee just holding his judgement up, which is the same problem Retri has atm. You can benefit from all the Retri bonuses just by having one 20/0/41 paladin in the raid healing his ass off while casting CS every 10 seconds.

We need something to oppose the Warrior abilities. If we can cast our abilities on Warriors as well, then where is the use of letting us do the tanking?
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Postby Glam » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am

Thels wrote:
corc wrote:while this might help our tanking abilities, don't you think we should look less at ourselves and towards the group?


No. If all our tanking abilities would be group applicable, you'd see every raid having 1 prot paladin in healing gear in melee just holding his judgement up, which is the same problem Retri has atm. You can benefit from all the Retri bonuses just by having one 20/0/41 paladin in the raid healing his ass off while casting CS every 10 seconds.

We need something to oppose the Warrior abilities. If we can cast our abilities on Warriors as well, then where is the use of letting us do the tanking?


This is why I was suggesting that it be a 2 point talent off of the Holy Vengeance stack and only applicable to the Paladin that has aggro with that stack. The pally would then be able to cleanse a fear off of a healer in order to stay up. In my opinion, this would give a very definite reason for having paladins as part of a guilds tanking corps.
I'm not saying my idea is the answer, I just feel that we do need to have a few more tools that are "paladin specific" and creates a NEED for having a paladin on the front line of a raid. As opposed to in the back of the raid in healbot mode.
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Postby Lore » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:22 am

Glam wrote:
Thels wrote:
corc wrote:while this might help our tanking abilities, don't you think we should look less at ourselves and towards the group?


No. If all our tanking abilities would be group applicable, you'd see every raid having 1 prot paladin in healing gear in melee just holding his judgement up, which is the same problem Retri has atm. You can benefit from all the Retri bonuses just by having one 20/0/41 paladin in the raid healing his ass off while casting CS every 10 seconds.

We need something to oppose the Warrior abilities. If we can cast our abilities on Warriors as well, then where is the use of letting us do the tanking?


This is why I was suggesting that it be a 2 point talent off of the Holy Vengeance stack and only applicable to the Paladin that has aggro with that stack. The pally would then be able to cleanse a fear off of a healer in order to stay up. In my opinion, this would give a very definite reason for having paladins as part of a guilds tanking corps.
I'm not saying my idea is the answer, I just feel that we do need to have a few more tools that are "paladin specific" and creates a NEED for having a paladin on the front line of a raid. As opposed to in the back of the raid in healbot mode.


What if you're Horde?
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:12 am

I think if you want to go the group buff route, which has some logic to it. It must come only as a result of being hit. Whether it be a proc or something we build up via blocks and then cast or what have you.

Ret would have been much better off had blizz listened to one of the more popular suggestions in 1.9 and made vengence a group buff. That would have increased pally DPS by exactly zero, while giving the group a strong boost to DPS. At the same time, it would require the pally to actually be hitting something, and get this, being able to roll on melee DPS raid gear. After this idea was ignored for the pally class review it was eventually given to shaman, so it can be done.
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Postby Glam » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:53 am

Lore wrote:What if you're Horde?


My original post stated that I didn't know enough about seal of blood to make any statements about it. My apologies if I give the impression that I would leave the Horde out in the cold. :oops:
What I have tried to point out is that we need something that requires us to be hitting the mob (being beat on would probably work as well) and generating if not tanking aggro then secondary aggro. I type of tool that addresses our fundamental deficiencies as a viable tank and seals the deal on raid leaders wanting a paladin tank.
Maybe the Redoubt idea is the way to go. I truly don't know. Redoubt certainly has its deficiencies as well. Although, I have to admit the sound effect is really cool.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: For I am... PALADIN!"
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Postby ari » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:19 pm

sorry i havent read the whole thread....

id like to see a seal/aura on the paladin that return mana to the caster of heals landed on the paladin - kinda like a judgement of wisdom on yourself that benefits healers the same way a judgement of wisdom on a mob benefits hunters and casters.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:20 pm

ari wrote:sorry i havent read the whole thread....

id like to see a seal/aura on the paladin that return mana to the caster of heals landed on the paladin - kinda like a judgement of wisdom on yourself that benefits healers the same way a judgement of wisdom on a mob benefits hunters and casters.


It's an interesting concept, probably wouldn't work as a seal or an aura, but it could work if it was part of imp RF or another similar type buff.
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Golden ideas

Postby Vallion » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:14 pm

Galvar wrote:Seal of Protection
210 Mana
Instant Cast
Fills the paladin with a holy light for 30 seconds, increasing <health> by <10% of total health> and causing all melee attacks to <do holy damage equal to 1% of total health>.

Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, causing <something to the judged enemy> and <holy damage equal to 5% of total health>. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

Might be overpowered but i doubt a warrior tank with the same level gear will have a hard time matching or beating the hp totals.


I don't mean to rehash something, but does anyone else feel this is pretty much exactly what we need? Gives us a bump in hp, gives us threat independent of spell damage, while still not making spell damage worthless (gotta keep your consecrates, HS, AS, and exorcism, when applicable, viable). It also is pretty much only applicable to tankadins, since Holy paladins easily have ~3-4k less hps than Prots, and Rets are still down ~2k. This is pretty freaking solid, highly unique, and very much in-line with Paladin-ness. When we're able to take more of a beating, we can protect our allies better. This idea rocks.

Galvar wrote:Seal of Protection
210 Mana
Instant Cast
Fills the paladin with a holy light for 30 seconds, increasing <block value> by <25/50/75/100%> and causing all melee attacks to <holy dmage equal to 25/50/75/100% of total block value>.

Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, causing <the targets armor value to be reduced by X stacks up to 5 times> and <something that causes threat>. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.


This idea is also very strong, in my eyes. Warriors increase their threat based on shield block, and this would allow us to do the same while shoring up Holy Shield's viability and easing us on having to spend harsh itemization points on dodge/parry (by making Block rapidly approach a respectable amount of damage blocked per block). The judgment probably should be retweaked to better fit a raid environment, but the base seal seems awesome while not overpowering us in 5-man content, which I think we all agree we're fine in.

Mortehl wrote:1) Swapping One Handed Weapon Specialization with Righteous Fury is a good start. RF needs to have the damage mitigation removed. Double the current threat generation. Moving the One Handed Spec up helps even out Retribution damage in the long run as well, thus helping the other side of the tree without turning Paladins into PVP EZ mode.

2) Blessing of Sanctuary - Make it self cast and add a 5% flat damage (spell and physical) mitigation. Turn Spell Warding into Improved Blessing of Sanctuary - 10/15% flat damage mitigation.

3) Sacred Duty - Turn it into a 5 point talent (2/4/6/8/10% stamina and 12/24/36/48/60 second reduction on Divine Shield)


One of those seals and these talent changes would really help us get into the mitigation and hp range of a warrior, reaffirm our aggro generation on single targets (an ability we seem to lose at the end of Karazhan) and still keep Warrior's firmly rooted in anti-fear, emergency button tankers.

Either of Galvar's two seals coupled with Mortehl's talent swaps would legitimately fix so many issues without unbalancing us even slightly, or, as Thel and others have pointed out, relegating us to a 1 slot position to buff the "real tanks", that it might not be a bad idea to post these changes on the WoW forums. The numbers most likely need to be tweaked, but I really think we've stumbled onto something that's presentable with at least a glimmer of opportunity.

Anyone else feel this way?

edit: minor rewording
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