New to Tanking / Want to try Heroics

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New to Tanking / Want to try Heroics

Postby DirtyMetis » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:43 pm

Hello all, just wanted to start by saying what a great forum this is - spent several hours just soaking up insight from stickies and various threads, all very helpful and so much more productive than trying to wade through the Official WoW forums!

First, a bit of background, feel free to skip down to questions below if you're pressed for time or apathetic - I understand and won't hold it against ya! :wink:

Here's my situation: My guild consists of 8 real-life friends with our numerous alts amongst us, but its all but impossible to get all of us on at the same time so Kara or any other 10+ man content is rather out of the question. That being said, our 5 core members (myself included) have run just about every normal 5-man more times than we'd care to count and we're kinda bored. We do a lot of PvPing and that was all well and good but that's getting to be rather tiresome as well. We'd like to start doing some heroics on a regular occasion for the added challenge and the schweet schweet badge goodies associated with 'em.

I've been Holy and primary healer of the group for most of our time playing/leveling up and while I'm told I'm quite good at it and still really enjoy it (when we're not in arena anyway - then I want to curl up into a ball in the corner), I'm itching to try my hand at tanking. Our previous tank was our feral druid who has now been focusing on his Resto Shaman, so I figure a role swap is in order. I'm relatively confident in his abilities to heal, so its time for me to step up to the plate and show 'em I can tank as well as I can sit back spamming heals.

We've tried running 2 or so Heroics thus far (with me healing, not tanking) and not met with very good results. After reading up a bit here I now realize our choice in starting heroics was probably not the best (Ramp followed by BM), but the rest of the group has gotten it in their heads that our class composition is such that we're unable to do Heroics. I refuse to accept this defeatist attitude and come seeking advice from you most knowledgeable folks of the Maintankadin forums.

Group Composition:
Me (Previously as Holy and healing, now as aspiring tank)
Hunter 1 (Marksman)
Hunter 2 (Marksman some days, BM others)
Rogue (Combat I think, he's got a pair of maces anyway *shrug*)
Shaman (Resto - our former Feral Druid and MT's alt)

(Of Note: Most everyone is primarily PvP/arena geared as that is what we spend most of our time doing lately - just something to keep in mind when offering advice.)

**QUESTION SECTION***

1.) Is our group composition really that big a problem? Seems like we've got more than enough CC, DPS, and Healing. I think they're just being pessimistic.

2.) Logged out in my current collection of tanking gear (LINK)

How's this for starters? Still spec'd Holy, and I know I've got some enchants and socketing to do yet - oh, and boots are on standby until I can get 2 Nethers together for Boots of the Protector. This gonna cut it for heroics? What do I need to tweak? Bunch of tasty badge gear I'm looking forward to, the libram will be my first purchase of course.

**EDIT**
Forgot a couple of key items, for weapon choices I've got the Continuum Blade and Crystalforged Sword, about half way to my S1 Gavel. And as a shield alternative I've got the S1 Shieldwall as well.
**END EDIT**

3.) How do you guys get those nifty banners with your character stats at the bottom of your posts? I want one! (LOL)

That's all I've got, just looking for any insight, advice, criticism, etc. Sorry for the long post, looking forward to what ya got to say!
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Postby tuberon » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:06 pm

As stickies around the forum tend to say... there's no way to say you're ready, there's always room for improvement.

Just try it.

Worst that can happen is a few g in repairs.
Warning: Above poster makes no claims to validity or sanity of said post.

Also... cake.
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Re: New to Tanking / Want to try Heroics

Postby rabbel » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:20 pm

Okay, let's have a look.
DirtyMetis wrote:1.) Is our group composition really that big a problem? Seems like we've got more than enough CC, DPS, and Healing. I think they're just being pessimistic.

Your group is pretty much okay. I'd prefer a mage instead of the second hunter for area damage when needed, but I think you'll be very okay with that setup. Have run dozens of heroics with a resto shammy, if he's equipped well enough and your DDs are competent you shouldn't have much problems with that Setup.

2.) Logged out in my current collection of tanking gear (LINK)

How's this for starters? Still spec'd Holy, and I know I've got some enchants and socketing to do yet - oh, and boots are on standby until I can get 2 Nethers together for Boots of the Protector. This gonna cut it for heroics? What do I need to tweak? Bunch of tasty badge gear I'm looking forward to, the libram will be my first purchase of course.

**EDIT**
Forgot a couple of key items, for weapon choices I've got the Continuum Blade and Crystalforged Sword, about half way to my S1 Gavel. And as a shield alternative I've got the S1 Shieldwall as well.
**END EDIT**

I prefer Continuum Blade over Crystalforged, but with your gear the more defensive Crystalforged would be more helpful. I have really no experience with the PvP-Stuff, as I really don't like to PvP with my pally.
As of the moment, you are missing 18 def to critimmunity in heroics, but Anticipation will get you to that. Try to get more Stamina, nice Choice here is the Sha'tar exalted rep Shield oder some of the ZA-lookalike badgestuff (legs, helmet). Try to get better trinkets, yours are both crappy for tanking, and you'll need some sort of emergency buttons here. You could take Dabiris Enigma from the Netherstorm quest, or the Adamantite Figurine from Blackheart in the Slabs. In BM you can get a nice Sta / Absorb Trinket, missing out the name though. If you haven't done yet, you can get nice boots out of the escort quest in Mana Tombs.

3.) How do you guys get those nifty banners with your character stats at the bottom of your posts? I want one! (LOL)

I honestly don't know ;)


My advice is to skill for tanking and just give it a try. You should consider trying one of the easier heroics though, like Underbog, Slave Pens, Mechanar oder Botanica. Avoid all Auchindoun and Cavern of Time instances at first, they aren't worth the headache, you can do it later when you are better geared. Hellfire Citadel can be hard, trash hits like trucks, and the Raveners in the ramparts or the Fel Annihilators in Bloodfurnace can _hurt_. Shattered Halls can be easymode with a pallytank, but it needs adequate gear, and training. Tempest Keep and Coilfang shouldn't be that hard, saving Arcatraz (trash, truck, you know? ;)).
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Re: New to Tanking / Want to try Heroics

Postby DirtyMetis » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:19 pm

As of the moment, you are missing 18 def to critimmunity in heroics, but Anticipation will get you to that.


Yup, got that covered as soon as I get around to respec'n

Try to get better trinkets, yours are both crappy for tanking, and you'll need some sort of emergency buttons here. You could take Dabiris Enigma from the Netherstorm quest, or the Adamantite Figurine from Blackheart in the Slabs. In BM you can get a nice Sta / Absorb Trinket, missing out the name though. If you haven't done yet, you can get nice boots out of the escort quest in Mana Tombs.


Took the healing pants at the time and missed out on Dabiris, been kicking myself ever since. Blackheart is aptly named as I've tried to get that bugger to drop that Figurine at least 30 times now. I'll get it eventually dangit! Done the escort quest already, dunno what I did with the boots, probably ended up DE'd what with 3 sets of gear and limited bag space.
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Postby Sielanas » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:12 am

I've main-healed plenty of Heroics, I know holy pallys that have tanked heroics, and not with T5+ gear either. Being smart and aware is better than gear in many cases, and it goes with all group members. And with your description of group, Hunters are always last options when I'm getting a group together. They never put up the stings I want, some don't even sting at all. That and they can't re-CC, since you'll need a bit in Heroics. I can only pull 5 at a time in H-Shattered, and even had to pause in the gauntlet.

Gear: go grind ShatHalls till you get the trinket. Easiest 4% you'll get. You'll keep it and swap it in and out to get more stats elsewhere.
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Postby Athon » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:34 am

Sielanas wrote:And with your description of group, Hunters are always last options when I'm getting a group together. They never put up the stings I want, some don't even sting at all. That and they can't re-CC, since you'll need a bit in Heroics. I can only pull 5 at a time in H-Shattered, and even had to pause in the gauntlet.

I disagree. Hunters can retrap, but this means that they have to lay a trap before you pull. Traps have 30 sec cooldown (without talents or Beast lord set bonus), but traps can exist for a minute before disappearing. A good hunter can chain trap the same mob at least three times if there are no resists or twice if there's a resist.

Traps don't mix well with AOE tanking though (very easy to break traps if you aren't careful). Casters are usually the worst problem and it is often hard to trap them unless the hunter has Silencing Shot.
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Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:50 am

Try to get the MM hunter to go 40 surv. Even if not properly geared (meaning over 700agi unbuffed), the spec does very well in 5mans since the CC is significantly better.

The gear I saw was healing gear. But generally, the starting point you should be at for heroics is roughly 12k health, 13k armor, 40-45% avoidance. You can do it with less, it's just much much harder.

UB is by far the easiest. The double bog giant pull is not really a double pull if one of the hunters kites one down the ramp and FD's when he runs out of running room. If you clear the entire area around the ramp so he can run behind it, he won't need to FD. A mage can blink back up the ramp. The rest of the instance is AoE tankable, which just shows how weak the trash is.
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Postby DirtyMetis » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:47 pm

Yeah, sorry, wanted to run a couple arena matches last nite so I swapped back in my healing gear. Really wish there was a 2 or 3 set "snapshot" option for gear/spec setups on armory - that'd be really slick!
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Postby sbeacher » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:53 pm

Hunters are always last options when I'm getting a group together. They never put up the stings I want, some don't even sting at all. That and they can't re-CC, since you'll need a bit in Heroics.


What.

The few cases where I ever ask a hunter to trap something, they usually trap the mob behind them, then set up an ice trap between them and the mob so when the mob unfreezes and comes for them it's automatically refrozen.

If for some reason it gets broken they just kite the mob around until I mark it for deletion.

Dumb players are just that, dumb players. It has nothing to do with classes.
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Postby Njorde » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:37 pm

sbeacher wrote:
Hunters are always last options when I'm getting a group together. They never put up the stings I want, some don't even sting at all. That and they can't re-CC, since you'll need a bit in Heroics.


What.

The few cases where I ever ask a hunter to trap something, they usually trap the mob behind them, then set up an ice trap between them and the mob so when the mob unfreezes and comes for them it's automatically refrozen.

If for some reason it gets broken they just kite the mob around until I mark it for deletion.

Dumb players are just that, dumb players. It has nothing to do with classes.



But the most hated classes to bring are hunters and rogues, due to how many Dumb People play those 2 classes.
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Postby sweeney » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:16 am

My wife plays a hunter like a champ. Chain traps as BM, 750-1k DPS, you name it.

I've met 1-2 hunters as good as her, 3 OK ones, and the rest were just terrible.

But really she's the one that gets up in arms about it, since her attempts to help people improve never go anywhere. I'll just say that people who play hunters are often.... stubborn.

Since the hunters they're talking about are in their permagroup, I'm sure they'll be fine. If they can't both retrap a mob 2-3 times without thinking about it, though, they should practice more. If they can do that as BM/MM, then if they were to go SV they could do some really crazy stuff.

To the OP: Your group should run heroic Slave Pens a couple of times; that'll get them warmed up with no problem, and show them that they can succeed.
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Postby DirtyMetis » Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:07 pm

Thanks all, appreciate the encouragement.

I've no worries about the two hunters, they're both VERY good at what they do. If I had any sort of complaint, it'd be their mutually competitive nature that tends to drive them to escalating battles on the DPS meters - and subsequent aggro headaches ensue (though I suspect they'd behave themselves if I asked, most of the time its fairly amusing!). That and they tend to get a bit too cocky when they've got me healing them in the BG's, but they're hunters, who can blame em...

As a bit of an update, I tried my hand at some tanking by doing a few runs through normal Ramparts - yeah, I know, gray mobs aren't exactly much of a challenge, it was more to get a feel for how things work. Overall I think I did pretty good, and had a lot of fun, though I went with a 20/41 heal/tank hybrid build and I'm absolutely fooling myself if I think I can manage to do both. So I guess I'll be swallowing the respecing fee on a regular basis; dailies any less painful to do as Prot than they are as Holy? (lol)

Thanks again all for the feedback and support, think we're gonna try a run through Heroic Slave Pens this weekend and see how that goes, I'll give an update if/when we actually get around to it.
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Postby rabbel » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:11 pm

Try Underbog first, there are some heavy hitters (the two Boglords before Hungarfen, those nasty, nasty Underbog Lords) who hit like trucks, but beside those two parts, the Underbog is a cakewalk. In the slave pens there are some 5-mob pulls towards the end, with fear, mindcontrol and so on. I'd suggest to take a mage for that, or the hunters will have a very hard time to take them out. It's considerably shorter though, you can skip a very large part of the trash in the first large room.
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