Minimum stats for Maiden

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Minimum stats for Maiden

Postby Stos » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:48 pm

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking on these forums for a few weeks now and as this is my first post I'd like to thank everyone for all the wonderful information you guys have gathered and organized on this site.

I've recently started tanking in Karazhan (two weeks ago as OT and this last weekend as MT) and for the most part things are going fairly well but I've been having a lot of trouble on the Maiden fight. I'd like to figure out if there's something I'm doing wrong or if there's something else the raid could be doing to help us with getting that fight to go easier than it is.

I've tried searching on the forums but all the posts related to Maiden seem to be about keeping aggro and such. I've read about the button spamming , etc. and it works fine for me. I don't seem to ever lose aggro. What does happen though is that I die during the first repentance pretty much every time. I usually enter it with around 3k health left as best I can tell but I intend to save a combat log next run (finally read about WWS) and get it parsed to see for sure.

Here's a link to my armory.
Relevant numbers (unbuffed, no kings) for quick reference:
11k health
12.8k armor
509 def
48.55% pure avoidance (dodge, parry, miss)
> 106% total avoidance with HS up. (Yeah I know only the first 102.4 counts)
237 block value

So my question is... what part of my gear is lacking for this fight? Should I be trying to swap out for more HP? more BV? Do I just need overall better gear? Is there certain abilities I have to let me last longer without heals like a warrior's last stand, etc.? I was trying to keep LoH for a second or third repentance because I can only do it once.

One mistake I've noticed is that I usually run with BofSanct but I now realize I should be using kings. I usually have a fort buff, spicy crawdad, MotW, Defense Aura, etc. on me while in raid so my buffed armor is over 14k and my buffed health over 12k (whatever fort+food+MoTW does to 11k with the right talents).

One priest healer was around +1750 healing and the other >+1800 and we had a druid offheal as well on one attempt that got closer although I don't know their stats offhand.

In the end we just swapped out one of the mages for our normal warrior MT (same person plays both toons) and I put on healing gear and put BoSac on him and healed through repentances and Cleansed everything I could, etc. and we fairly easily won it. He's better geared than I am though with > 58% pure avoidance and about 900 more HP, 2k more armor plus he has commanding shout, etc.

Thanks for your time and help,
-Stos, noob tankadin
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Postby Lalecize » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:01 pm

Its not you at all its the healers.
You effectively had one extra healer when you swapped the mage out.

Having a pally using BoSac is ideal to heal during repentance.
We personally have a pally doing that and a tree druid standing right by the entrance to maidens room.

when repentance hits i take two steps towards him and give him one tick of the aoe (then step back), breaking his repentance and effectively giving me two healers during that phase. You can never guarantee the pally's gna get bosac down each time before repenteance.

Generally you need to make sure u get ur holy shield up during the non silenced time. Prioritse that then consecrate, SoR comes second. Your dps should be careful on threat.

Your stats are good for maiden, better than most tanks that start kara (sadly) So I'd say your healers need to be more wary of repentance. Pretty much during repentance any healer free should be on you, and they need to have you topped off before repentance.

By getting in a better geared warrior they made the healing easier on themselves, rather than fixing their issue.

Try having one stand close so you can break repentance and get some heals. Once you have it all worked out, then she will be cake!

Goodluck on the gauntlets :D
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Postby Lisilia » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:43 pm

Lalecize wrote:Its not you at all its the healers.

maiden is more a check on how smart your healers are than on gear. ;)

i'm now talking from a healers perspective, i played my resto shaman when we did maiden (actually i used the same tactics when i offhealed maide, simpley because i forgot about BoSac (stupid me))

we usually had me running in whenever repentance cooldown was finished and wait for repentance to hit. single healing the tank a few seconds was not that hard, all you have to do is keep him alive till the other healers get out of repentance. for this trategy it's vital for the healer that runs in the consecration to exactly know where repentance ticks and where not, loosing a few seconds because you get a heal interrupted is deadly most of the time.

also, as Lalecize said, it's important for all healers to have their hots on you before a repentance


as a side note: we also tried having the tank drag maiden to a healer to get him out of repentance, did not work very well because often the tank dragged her to far and interrupted the heal


your mileage may vary of course ;)
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Postby Lalecize » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:58 pm

tliff wrote:
Lalecize wrote:Its not you at all its the healers.

maiden is more a check on how smart your healers are than on gear. ;)

i'm now talking from a healers perspective, i played my resto shaman when we did maiden (actually i used the same tactics when i offhealed maide, simpley because i forgot about BoSac (stupid me))

we usually had me running in whenever repentance cooldown was finished and wait for repentance to hit. single healing the tank a few seconds was not that hard, all you have to do is keep him alive till the other healers get out of repentance. for this trategy it's vital for the healer that runs in the consecration to exactly know where repentance ticks and where not, loosing a few seconds because you get a heal interrupted is deadly most of the time.

also, as Lalecize said, it's important for all healers to have their hots on you before a repentance


as a side note: we also tried having the tank drag maiden to a healer to get him out of repentance, did not work very well because often the tank dragged her to far and interrupted the heal


your mileage may vary of course ;)


Haha why thankyou :D

Personally we tried the healer running in, it also means they gotta run out and cant heal while moving.

I can still tank moving so we found that easier, however you are right, if im not on the ball the healer cops a silence.

I dunno what it was but once we downed her, we havent had an issue since ever.
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Re: Minimum stats for Maiden

Postby mazater » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:39 am

Stos wrote:> 106% total avoidance with HS up. (Yeah I know only the first 102.4 counts)


The 102,4 puts you to uncrushable, however the more you have, the less damage you take, meaning that going above 102,4 is not bad or useless.
It is good.
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Postby Uthadanin » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:34 am

We always have 2 healers jump in her "concecrate" once the repentance timer runs out... they normally only take 3-4 ticks of holy ground (if we don't have a pally healer).

It is really a healer check, we generally have our druid or shammy dps ready to jump on heals if our main healer drops.

Maiden really isn't a tank battle. her holy wrath etc to dps is far more damaging than maiden herself. Maiden is healers' curator.
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Postby Wraith » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:55 am

I almost never tank maiden, even when I am the MT for the raid. As a pally I am far more useful putting up BoSac and cleansing during this fight. You can take pressure off your healers by cleansing and just have them heal. If you have a pally healer. Have him BoS the person tanking maiden and you can toss a BoSac on the pally healer.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:04 am

Maiden fight has 2 additions to tank&Spank
1: You have to wake your healers. This means either having a paladin's BoSacrifice or you ticking holy ground into them when repentance starts(just move a little bit and you get it, easy easy)
2: your dispellers must be on the ball. Even warlocks can do that if the puppy is healed through the holy ground(did that on my warlock)
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Postby TheHonage » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:24 am

stats i first tanked her with

10.7k hp
11k-ish armor
490ish defence
92% avoidence

she died. I didnt. She = cake. Or, if it so pleases you, pie.
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Postby Balanor » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:24 pm

Wraith wrote:I almost never tank maiden, even when I am the MT for the raid. As a pally I am far more useful putting up BoSac and cleansing during this fight. You can take pressure off your healers by cleansing and just have them heal. If you have a pally healer. Have him BoS the person tanking maiden and you can toss a BoSac on the pally healer.


^^This

I've MT'd and lead our Kara raids the last couple weeks but willingly step out to let one of our feral druids who are usually along do the tanking while I don my ghetto healing gear and become a cleanse bot. Most of my casting is to remove Holy Fire from whoever its on, keeping BoS on the tank and then healing until the repentance fades from the other healers.
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Postby Stos » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:27 pm

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the helpful responses.

It looks like I have the gear I need to tank her then although I should have BoK on instead of BoSanct and I should explain the positioning better. We were standing in between the pillars but it's probably easier to guarantee visibility/range if I get people to each stand in front of a pillar. I don't think I actually mentioned the positioning to the melee either so that would have helped too.

That said, as many of you have pointed out, rather than try to get non-pally healers to heal through repentance it's probably easier if I just don my healing gear and handle the cleanses and repentance healing myself. We had a feral druid along as OT on that run so he can probably do the tanking for that fight. The time we got it to work bringing in the warrior MT that was all I was doing (cleansing and healing during repentance in my healing gear) and it seemed to go much smoother.

Ideally I'd like the healers to get better at doing this (dispelling while healing) but we're a casual guild and I don't think we've run Kara with the same group of people twice (and we don't even have enough interest to field a full group so we run with another similar guild) so it's probably just easier to learn to do the cleansing and healing myself to ensure we get it done in future runs.

Thanks for all the responses,
-Stos
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Re: Minimum stats for Maiden

Postby Stos » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:32 pm

Mazater wrote:
Stos wrote:> 106% total avoidance with HS up. (Yeah I know only the first 102.4 counts)


The 102,4 puts you to uncrushable, however the more you have, the less damage you take, meaning that going above 102,4 is not bad or useless.
It is good.


True, more pure avoidance is good but the last 3.6% is just more block which doesn't help at all, they're wasted itemization points. When I have more time I'll have to play around to see if I can loose some block % and maybe replace it with stamina or dodge/parry % instead while still staying uncrushable.

-Stos
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