New and old Ardent Defender

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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New and old Ardent Defender

Postby Torakka » Thu May 24, 2007 7:31 am

Ok, some really heavy theorycraft conserning new and old AD incoming. (I'm not native english speaker so try to understand the blatant missuse of terms too ;P):

First think your current health as percentages as x-axis and damage you can take without dieing as y-axis. Maximum damade you can take at any give HP amount is simpleY =X function and the area that function separates shows how many different current HP / damage received scenarios there is that you can survive. That area is triangle of which height is 100 and width 100 so area is 100 x 100 / 2 = 5000. (Yes, there are more HP / DMG combinations, but those are the ones where both damage you take and damage you can take are full percentages, ie. not any "I took 22.4% hit at 40.8% HP and survived)

Here's the graph:
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Pink area is where you'll survive regardless of AD, yellow where only old AD will save you, blue where only new AD will save you and green where both new and old AD will save you.

Old AD adds 50% mitigation at last 20% HP so in this case it equals fuction y = 2X. Area between functionsY = X and Y = 2X (at those last 20%) is 20 x (40-20) / 2 = 200. 200 is 4% of 5000 so old AD gives you 4% more possible damage you can take / damage you take combinations than you'd have without it.

New AD adds 30% mitigation at last 35% HP so in this case it equals fuction Y = 10X / 7. Area between functions Y = X and Y = 10X / 7 (at those last 35%) is 35 x (50-35) / 2 = 262.5. 262.5 is 5.25% of 5000 so new AD gives you 5.25% more possible damage you can take / damage you take combinations than you'd have without it.

In conclusion new AD prevents your death more often than old AD, but we can see that they overlap each other only a bit, so new AD usually won't prevent death when old AD would have and vice versa.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 24, 2007 7:52 am

Nice, good numbers. That mirrors what my healers were noticing last night.
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Postby Fade » Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:00 am

While this is fine and true, the New AD was a nurf to solo prot aoe grinding. The reason behind this is that the new 30% damage mitigation isnt enough to keep yourself up through the use of Seal of Light and Judgement of Light.
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Postby Lore » Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:04 am

I'm willing to take a nerf to solo prot aoe grinding for better tanking ability.
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Postby Fade » Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:11 am

Agreed, but I made a few videos solo prot aoe grinding in Stratholme and Blizzard took a look at it and said that Ardent Defender might just need some adjusting :-p
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Postby PsiVen » Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:18 am

I didn't need to make heavy use of Ardent Defender to aoe grind Stratholme. Soloing Ramparts and Blood Furnace I might have more trouble with now though.

I really like the new AD. Situations where it's useful to survive with <35% HP come up far more often in real tanking than <20% which is when you want to hit a pot/HS to survive anyway.
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Postby Fade » Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:31 pm

I stacked heavily on spell damage, didnt have much avoidence, so it was necessary to rely heavily on Ardent Defender.
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Postby Jaydin » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:52 am

one big reason for the change was also due to the huge potential for leapfrogging - the increased range helps to lower the chance and effect of leapfrogging
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Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:50 am

/target Maintankadin forums
/cast thread necromancy

Okay, so I've been thinking again, which is bad because thinking ends up costing me gold in repairs and respecs. If I'm running with a 20/41/0 build, and I don't have 1H spec, Precision, or Weapon Expertise, and I'm mainly off-tanking in raids or running heroics, would I be better served by 1H spec instead of Ardent Defender? 5% boost in damage (which ends up being more of a boost in aggro) vs 30% reduction in incoming damage when I've got less than 5k health (I have >14k HP buffed up, so 35% is around 5k). I'm not sure that Ardent Defender is really worth it, debating dropping it for 1H spec instead. Thoughts?
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Postby Lore » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:57 am

Baelor wrote:/target Maintankadin forums
/cast thread necromancy

Okay, so I've been thinking again, which is bad because thinking ends up costing me gold in repairs and respecs. If I'm running with a 20/41/0 build, and I don't have 1H spec, Precision, or Weapon Expertise, and I'm mainly off-tanking in raids or running heroics, would I be better served by 1H spec instead of Ardent Defender? 5% boost in damage (which ends up being more of a boost in aggro) vs 30% reduction in incoming damage when I've got less than 5k health (I have >14k HP buffed up, so 35% is around 5k). I'm not sure that Ardent Defender is really worth it, debating dropping it for 1H spec instead. Thoughts?


They're completely different talents aimed at different aspects of tanking, so it's really a matter of "do I need more threat or more (possible) mitigation," which is probably something you'll have to answer yourself :P
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Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:06 am

Lore wrote:
Baelor wrote:/target Maintankadin forums
/cast thread necromancy

Okay, so I've been thinking again, which is bad because thinking ends up costing me gold in repairs and respecs. If I'm running with a 20/41/0 build, and I don't have 1H spec, Precision, or Weapon Expertise, and I'm mainly off-tanking in raids or running heroics, would I be better served by 1H spec instead of Ardent Defender? 5% boost in damage (which ends up being more of a boost in aggro) vs 30% reduction in incoming damage when I've got less than 5k health (I have >14k HP buffed up, so 35% is around 5k). I'm not sure that Ardent Defender is really worth it, debating dropping it for 1H spec instead. Thoughts?


They're completely different talents aimed at different aspects of tanking, so it's really a matter of "do I need more threat or more (possible) mitigation," which is probably something you'll have to answer yourself :P

Think for myself? Blasphemous!

I'm just trying to decide whether a situation where I'm down to 5k HP or less and another hit 5-6k hit is incoming is one that I'm going to find myself in really often... I dunno if a 30% reduction in damage only at low HP is worth 5 points. If the cutoff is 5000 HP even, for arguments sake, I can survive about a 6500 hit if I'm *just* below the cutoff. If I'm any lower, I'm still dead. Plus, how long does one stay at low health anyway in the world of spam heals, instant heals, HoT's, and healthstones?
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Postby Lore » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:22 am

It happens, and ultimately 5% more threat isn't going to save your life any more than Ardent Defender will. Likewise, Ardent Defender isn't going to fix threat issues if you're having them.

That's why I said it kinda depends on your situation :P Theoretical mitigation, even if it might not always actually exist, is better than no mitigation at all.

With a 20/41 build, assuming you've got imp SoR, I'd lean more towards Ardent Defender for more all-around tanking ability. However with a build like that I find it likely that your tanking situation is generally an offtanking/burst threat role, so the 5% additional threat may do you more good in that regard. Really depends on your specifics.
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Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:42 am

Lore wrote:It happens, and ultimately 5% more threat isn't going to save your life any more than Ardent Defender will. Likewise, Ardent Defender isn't going to fix threat issues if you're having them.

That's why I said it kinda depends on your situation :P Theoretical mitigation, even if it might not always actually exist, is better than no mitigation at all.

With a 20/41 build, assuming you've got imp SoR, I'd lean more towards Ardent Defender for more all-around tanking ability. However with a build like that I find it likely that your tanking situation is generally an offtanking/burst threat role, so the 5% additional threat may do you more good in that regard. Really depends on your specifics.

Actually, no Imp SoR :shock:
Divine Int, Spiritual Focus, Healing Light, Imp LoH, and 5/5 Illumination... yea they're all healing talents...

And yes, you hit the nail on the head with my role. I'm trying to carve a niche as a burst aggro/off-tank. Many tell me my threat is fine, but I still lose aggro every once in a while, and I just know that the DPS could pull if they wanted to. But then again, I'm a healer too, and I know that anything the tank can do to stay alive longer is good...

Perhaps I'm thinking about it too much, as usual. My healers say I'm fine to heal on what I tank usually, and people keep saying my threat is fine. But I know that both could be better, and they can.
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Postby Prepared » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:07 pm

I'll always remain impressed with AD, and greedy enough to grab it and 1-H Spec in the same build. My spec is pretty much squeezing out what remains (in my opinion) the most mitigation, and the most threat (short of finding five magical points to put into Imp. Devo Aura).

I will see how it serves me on my first 25-man boss today. I'd previously only tanked Olm during the HK fight, but tonight Maulgar is my friend. <3
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Postby Jaydin » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:29 pm

yeah i say take a look at your track record - how low do you usually get? do your spikes take you to 5k or less? you have what...214 spell power? tough call...i personally like the safety net of AD - ive said more than a few times "boy gotta love ad" with everyone going "wtf is ad" but if your mitigation, healers, and luck has kept you >35% most of the time, try out the 1 handed spec - its "only" a respec...worst comes to worse you find youself taking those hits spec on back ^_^
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