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Ability Theory: "Seal of Protection"

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Arcand » Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:50 pm

This isn't a seal idea. If you find it distracting, I'll transplant it to another thread.

Redoubt (5 points, somewhere deeper then currently in Protection)
When the paladin is struck by a melee attack, Redoubt has a x/2x/3x/4x/5x% chance to gain one charge, to a maximum of 5 charges.

When activated, Redoubt increases the block value of the paladin's shield by (???) per charge until an attack is blocked.

(???) = some multiple of your intellect, some multiple of your block value, whatever works.

Alternate:
When activated, Redoubt reduces the next source of damage by y% per charge.

You could spam it on just about every attack (depending on the value of x) to gain some steady low-level mitigation, or you could let the charges stack up to 5 and use it as your Oh Shit button - if you get knocked into the red zone you punch Redoubt and the huge block saves the day.
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Postby Glam » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:11 am

Personally, I would like to see Weapon Expertise removed from the talent tree and in it's place a 2 point talent that gives fear/silence (not stun) immunity when a SoV (sorry, I don't know enough about SoB to make a statement on that) stack of 5/3 is in place on the mob. Think of it this way, this would give a very definite reason to have a pally tanking since he would have to be holding aggro on the mob to keep it from running after squishies immediately. As well, the pally tank would for sure need to be ready to dispel fear from a healer very quickly.

That would leave 3 points in the tree (very high up) that could go towards easing the way on our crush immunity issues allowing us to make better use of our gear.

I would also like to see BoSanc changed to a self buff only w/ the whole Blessing portion of it removed. If this was to affect ALL damage, this alone could make up the difference on HP for us. Again, this would have to be close to the top of the tree to prevent it from being overpowered. It would also see more use as a self buff.

Arcand has a line of thought that I like as well. Redoubt would be nice if it was something more solid. Some sort of a caster interupt would be nice if there was a stack of 5 redoubt in place.
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Postby Alixander » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:44 am

First off, beyond the basics of the need for it to be a cross-faction ability (you think we hear a lot of bitching about Fear Ward... oh man this would be even worse...), SoV is almost impossible to keep up full time with a 1H weapon. Honestly I can't think of a single weapon off the top of my head that's a 1H that has over 3.0 attack speed. And even if there are weapons that slow, how many of them are viable tanking or spell damage weapons? That narrows the field even more. Oh, an just to add another aspect, how many of those weapons would qualify as endgame weapons? I'd be surprised if there was more than one that met the criteria I just outlined.

Also having your entire ability to fight a fearing mob based around something that's got a chance to proc is a very fast way to die. You don't want to gamble you're entire raid on a chance your immunity will be up. This is what makes Fear Ward and Berserker Rage valuable. While they have a semi-long cooldown, they are also completely controllable, so when the shit hits the fan, you know you can count on it.

With that in mind, I also believe that even requiring talent points, a total immunity to fear and/or silence as long as some effect was active would be far too powerful. In situations like that, there would be a way of getting around the chance that something like Holy Vengance (the name of the debuff that SoV creates) would fall off, at which point you'd completely trivialize any encounter that fear and/or silence takes part of.

Though I will admit that the idea of a temporary silence immunity with a medium cooldown (30-45 seconds) is both innovative and useful, and would be a valuable contrast to a warrior's similar temporary fear immunity.
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Postby Arcand » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:47 am

The arena types would blow a gasket, I think, if we got a 30-second silence immunity.
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Postby Alixander » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:55 am

Arcand wrote:The arena types would blow a gasket, I think, if we got a 30-second silence immunity.
What about 8-10 second immunity with a 30-60 second cooldown? >.> Maybe it would give us Repentance as a balancing effect?
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Postby Arcand » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:13 am

Alixander wrote:Maybe it would give us Repentance as a balancing effect?


That sounds like it'd balance out.

And this idea's now beginning to overlap a bit with some of the "Divine Shield without the aggro loss" ideas, since either way we're becoming immune to debuffs for a ~10s period and getting Repentance.
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Postby Alixander » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:19 am

Arcand wrote:
Alixander wrote:Maybe it would give us Repentance as a balancing effect?


That sounds like it'd balance out.

And this idea's now beginning to overlap a bit with some of the "Divine Shield without the aggro loss" ideas, since either way we're becoming immune to debuffs for a ~10s period and getting Repentance.
Maybe, but at least this would have a much smaller cooldown, to match it's much more limited effect. *shrugs*
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Postby kurros » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:30 am

Arcand wrote:The arena types would blow a gasket, I think, if we got a 30-second silence immunity.


It would be kinda like warriors have a 30 second immunity to all priest and warlock CCs.

Oh wait, deathwish.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Glam » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:59 pm

First off, I don't know of anyone that sits still in PvP long enough for a Pally to be able to stack 3 to 5 SoV procs on them. Therefore, in my view its only real value would be in tanking. The uproar over it would be similar to the one that came up about the priests getting Mass-Dispel. It would die out in my opinion once everyone realizes that it is no big issue in PvP.

As to the weapon speed issue, I'm only just getting started doing heroics and my guild will be starting Khara soon, so I have yet to see an issue where I wasn't able to get SoV to stack at least 3 times. Admittedly, my lack of experience with higher level mobs may be leaving me short-sighted on this. Then again, this may be something that would force us to look at + hit rating. Since I do have some of that in my gear, that may be the reason why I don't have a problem stacking it. I honestly don't know.

The simple point to my post was to put forth the idea of a tool that would make us more functional/desirable in 25 man content.
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Postby Joanadark » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:40 pm

All my ideas seem to involve slowing or mini-stuns, too - but slower attacks mean we get less Holy Shield threat, less BoSanc threat if you're running that, and fewer chances to proc Reckoning...




I fully agree with you, and it was that objection that led me to the concept of a Judgment granting a Block Value multiplier which varies based on the size of incoming damage.


My chain of reasoning is as follows…





In my view, the perfect solution would be something that:

-affects US, rather than the mob

Wouldn’t be counter-intuitive with many of the existing structure of protection paladin tanking, unlike a mob debuff could easily be, as recognized in the above quote.
A mob debuff, especially something like an attack speed decrease, would almost always be a copy of other tanking class' mechanics and a sacrifice of what relative advantages paladin tanks enjoy, rather than a synergistic complement to those advantages.
I think that most possibilities for a mob debuff would be a step backwards.




-having the buff scale to have a proportionally bigger effect the larger/less-frequent the incoming attacks are.

This relationship would be the primary reason to implement such a new mechanic in the first place; to correct the unhealthy situation of the paladin tanking advantages being unable to extend themselves to as wide a range of potential encounter characteristics as the advantages of the druid and warrior tanking strategies.

Since paladins thrive on blocking and on uncompromisable crushing blow immunity, the desirable situation would be to find a way to make these focuses as useful against slow/hard-hitting bosses as they are against fast/weak-hitting bosses and multi-tank situations.

It's often pointed out that flat mitigation, like a significant portion of our mitigation is, while amazing against weak attacks, is only a drop in the bucket when being hit for extremely large amounts.



-a proportionally smaller effect the smaller/more-frequent the incoming attacks are.

As described in the previous point, the ideal solution would be to extend flat mitigation effectiveness to big damage-range hits, but its dangerous and very easily unbalancing to simply increase the size of the flat mitigation to the level where this would be true, since the small damage-range encounters as well as most non-boss attackers and pvp foes would then become trivialized. Such an action would be game-breaking, not to mention available to warriors simultaneously in many of the possible ways of accomplishing it, which would defeat the purpose.

This is the reason I am in favor of a MULTIPLICATIVE effect on our flat mitigation, primarily block value, which I have always championed as central to our viability and uniqueness as tanks, BASED ON THE SIZE OF THE INCOMING DAMAGE.
Such a solution, unlike percent damage reductions, would:
1) scale visibly and healthily with gear without being dangerous to game balance (since upgrades in your block value would be easy to recognize due to the multiplicative factor on it)
2) would naturally preserve a differentiation between warriors and paladins, although both use the block mechanic. The available block value itemization would obviously be carefully controlled to prevent excessive stacking of the stat by paladins, while being available in sufficient quantity and upgradeability to allow warrior threat scaling (which, due to the multiplicative effect the paladin enjoys, could be kept from reaching excessive heights while allowing paladin mitigation to scale at a different rate, even though both simultaneously use the same stat).
3) would be a very healthy relationship between the two classes making use of the stat, as worry over making a vital gear rebalance for one class causing unintended overpoweredness in the other class using the resulting gear would be significantly lower.
4) would neither trivialize content with low damage-range attacks, nor content with high damage-range attacks, and would still create many potential situations where a mitigation strategy from the opposite end (i.e. percent mitigation and massive health, namely; Bears) would be more effective than a mitigation strategy working from the bottom up, even when made competitive through the multiplicative factor.



-isn't powerful enough to in and of its self justify the dedication of a whole spot in the raid group just so that the effect is granted to the tank if the paladin causing it isnt the one tanking.

This doesn’t have to mean "paladin-exclusive in benefit" at all. Just not something so powerful it cant be ignored and would contribute more to tank survival than having a main healer filling the raid slot.

Corollary to this is that it would have to:
1) require the paladin to either be the one tanking (reactive effect from the paladin having aggro, doesn't necessarily has to be a talent)
or
2) simply require a prot paladin in the raid (i.e. deep prot talent)
or
3) require a paladin in the raid that doesn’t necessarily have to be prot to devote their primary attention to keeping the effect active instead of doing something else, such as healing.

Why? If this isn’t the case, the ability would have great potential for being overpowered or game-altering, would require rethinking of boss tuning, or would morph prot paladins into the role of debuffer without helping the cause of paladin tanking.







Conclusion:
A block value multiplier doesn't make the mistake many suggested solutions do of forgetting the leveling grind portion of the game and the early stages of being under-geared and stat-starved.
A block value multiplier would retain the current balance of undergeared paladins being less survivable than undergeared tanks of the other two classes, while still making leveling and newly-70 paladins' stats go further in the early stages.
It would also reinforce the existing incentive to hoard Block Rating in the beginning in a more intuitive, less math intensive, and easy to understand way than crushing blow mechanics do.

A major criticism of the paladin tanking mechanics in their current incarnation are their unintuitive nature.
Writing this defense of my ability concept out actually inspired me to write out another idea I've had floating around my head regarding the importance of intuitive logic and coherence in class mechanic design that stemmed from my reaction to this post by Alixander:
http://kazielmmo.blogspot.com/2007/06/p ... hange.html
The main thrust of the concept, in how it relates to itemization, was also recently echoed by Coriel on the June 29th post on http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/

My continuation may be found in the thread entitled “Speaking in Machine Language” – thoughts on tankadins in General, located here:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... =8653#8653
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Voldiir » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:49 am

Personally, I would like to see a debuff. Something that actually weakens the mob (instead of "buff" us like JoW does, for example).

Adding an improved form of Consecration (would have to be deep in prot) that laid down a debuff on the target. Let's say that it's a 2 second debuff on the target, that is applied/reapplied (non-stacking, of course) each tick of Consecration. It would then last the entire duration +2 seconds of Consecration (10-second HS rotation), and effect every mob who is taking your Consecration damage. This debuff could reduce the amount of damage dealt by the affected target(s) by... say... 5% or so. Mathematically, this damage reduction would probably take place before armor is considered (much like BoSanc) so it would probably be cut down to about 2% effective damage reduction. But it would effect ALL targets. Meaning any of the AoE situations that we are famous for, as well as any mob that hits us hard enough to justify constant Consecration usage (mostly bosses).

The best part about this is that it boosts the paladin tank in every way (but not so drastic of a change to be OP), AoE as well as single target. It will also tear away from the idea that "pallies off-tank" since an off-tanking paladin who is spamming Consecration will be OOM quickly.
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Postby Reiyuka » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:50 pm

Iliria wrote:Just a random throw out....but am I the only person that has wished they could cast seal of the crusader on a mob via a judgement? Of course...not give them the attack power bonus. But by increasing their attack speed you..

A. Make damage less spiky, and Ardent defender less leapfrog-able
B. Increase the value of your block value (hah, think that one through!)
C. Further increase the strength of your holy shield.


I'd like to echo the sentiments in this one. That would be a pretty big help, if JotC did this (perhaps in addition to the regular one). Mobs attacking faster very much plays to prot paladins' strengths, and smoothing out the damage spikes also helps greatly.

Warriors generally wouldn't want this judgement up at all, it'd be certain death to them - but for us, more hits is more threat, and weaker hits makes block value more valuable. even if it worked out to slightly more damage overall, block value might make up for it.
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About fears

Postby Brendil » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:28 pm

A good possible solution to fears:

Judgement of justice makes mobs immune to fear. Seal of justice... sucks. Hard.

Change the seal to absorb one fear effect, consuming the seal and placing it on cooldown for <balanced number> of seconds. This could be baseline or talented, either way.

Warriors have to stance dance to berserker stance, taking extra damage, to avoid fears. We'd have to give up the threat from SoR for as long as we want to be protected.
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Ardent Defender

Postby Brendil » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:33 pm

A reworking of ardent defender that I think would be worth testing:

In addition to its existing effect, any blow that would otherwise kill the paladin is halved, with the second half dealt over 3 seconds. It would solve the AD leapfrog issue, because the DoT effect would occur once you're below 35%. It would also smooth out spikes without reducing the total damage we take.
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Re: About fears

Postby kurros » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:57 am

Brendil wrote:A good possible solution to fears:

Judgement of justice makes mobs immune to fear. Seal of justice... sucks. Hard.

Change the seal to absorb one fear effect, consuming the seal and placing it on cooldown for <balanced number> of seconds. This could be baseline or talented, either way.

Warriors have to stance dance to berserker stance, taking extra damage, to avoid fears. We'd have to give up the threat from SoR for as long as we want to be protected.


This sounds like a pretty good idea, but it would have to be a very high protection talent that adds the fear immunity to seal of justice. As a baseline talent it would be overpowered for holy paladins in pvp.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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