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questions about spell rotation and mana in KZ

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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questions about spell rotation and mana in KZ

Postby Evangelina » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:58 pm

Sorry for the recurrent topic but I never thought I'd be oom in KZ. As it was my first time I think I did something wrong...I also thought I would take much more damage than that. I only did attumen, moroes, maiden, R&J so I know there are not the most difficult fights but I expected more damage taken.

First of all, I'm not allowed to aoe tank trash or boss (only if there are no more cc...). Don't ask me why, raid leader's decision...So during this first try I mainly had to deal with single targets, except the non-elite when we go from attumen to moroes/maiden(but I'd rather say the mage "tanked it"...). I have to say I'm not used to do that, even in heroics I have at least 2 mobs on me.

Attumen
I pull trash with exorcism and do my normal rotation, consecration, HS, JoR, etc...but when it's done with the first mob I don't have much mana to keep up(everything is schakled, trapped, offtanked). So if there are 3 or 4 mobs I'm oom for the last one... And when I tried to get more on me the offtanker just left the raid...So I have to deal with having enough threat and saving enough mana for the next mob. Should I pull with exorcism and then judge wisdom right after ?

How to open with a boss ? If think I'm doing too much...as they are undead I usually pull with AW, AS, exorcism, JotC. By doing this I lose nearly half of my mana bar...
And when do I need to switch JotC with JoW ? I usually try to do this when I'm under the half of my mana bar. But it did not helped me a lot : I was oom when attumen went on midnight. I had few mana issues with moroes(thanks to him I've ben garroted). The only boss I had no problem was maiden. Didn't meet the other bosses yet.

So what do I have to do ? I thought I could use max ranks and don't have to worry about mana in KZ.

Actually it was not that bad for a first run. But oom everytime after the fights. And having my hp always on top, I guess it's me doing something wrong. Please help me I don't want the "bear" to be maintanking instead of me. And I don't wanna hear anymore you have a low mana bar, you're lacking of mana during fights, stop drinking, etc...

BTW I have around 5K mana and I keep everything up (HS, consecration, exorcism, AS, JoR, etc...)
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Re: questions about spell rotation and mana in KZ

Postby Aevie » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:31 pm

Evangelina wrote:First of all, I'm not allowed to aoe tank trash or boss (only if there are no more cc...). Don't ask me why, raid leader's decision...So during this first try I mainly had to deal with single targets, except the non-elite when we go from attumen to moroes/maiden(but I'd rather say the mage "tanked it"...). I have to say I'm not used to do that, even in heroics I have at least 2 mobs on me.


That's why.

Are your healers ones that you normally run with? If so, then they know how to heal you in heroics, they can most likely keep you up in Karazhan. Ask your raid leader to let you tank the way a paladin is meant to, just for the Attumen stable (and link An Officer's Guide to Paladin Tanking on your guild forums for him!) and afterwards, discuss. You consecrate, JoR / exorcism stuff that gets pulled out of your AoE to be CC'd, and you generally show that you can indeed handle the pulls. What should happen is that your DPS will love the speed, ease and more importantly, being able to use their AoE stuff like blade flurry / whirlwind / etc. Your healers will be kept on their toes, which is ten times better than them being bored.

I had a priest last night who kept shackling in the stable. I kept breaking his shackle immediately (yay for consecrate). The entire raid and Vent kept telling him to stop, and he wouldn't; I almost died because he wasn't healing me while spamming shackle. Some people just don't know how to handle a paladin tank and can't accept how much more effective we get with several mobs beating on us... if no one will give you the chance to prove yourself, then you need to make it happen yourself.

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Postby Wakeman » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:00 pm

I agree that your raid leader need to read something about pally tanking. Besides, did the priest shielded you? This is another common cause of oom I found with pug priests. I always told them to only shield me when I'm <30% hp.

On the other hand, you need to learn how to handle situation when you are not getting enough mana. Depends on your own threat generate and your raid dps, you can omit consecretion for the trash, or down rank it to 3 or 4. Consecretion is generally a waste if you are only tanking one mob. Also, when you are really "out-geared", and your health is always full, you can omit holy shield temporarily. Also some people like to have a set of standard gear for boss and a set of gear with higher spell dmg and lower avoidance/mitigation for cleaning trash.

Besides, when pulling, it is usually better to use AS over Exocism. This way when the mobs break cc, they will go straight to you instead of the healers/CCers.

Hope this help.
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Postby Evangelina » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:27 am

Are your healers ones that you normally run with?

I normally run heroics with two healers, another paladin and my friend the "tree". This latest has a tankadin and is used to deal with. He agreed with me when I told him "maybe I can tank Attu and midnight together" (but for my guild an offtanker is mandatory). He has also told the raid I can handle with 2 horses at the beginning but raid kept schakles and offtanking. But yesterday the paladin was not there and I had a priest. So yeah maybe I should post links on my forum but english speaking and my guild.... xD

Some people just don't know how to handle a paladin tank and can't accept how much more effective we get with several mobs beating on us...

Well I felt like I was heading to the BT(though I have no idea of the instance xD)...only one mob, be careful to cc, let him tank, etc...and when cc broke it was panic...

Besides, did the priest shielded you? This is another common cause of oom I found with pug priests.

actually I had a lot of shields yep :( will talk to him.

On the other hand, you need to learn how to handle situation when you are not getting enough mana.

Well, I've tanked all the heroics entirely and never had mana problems(though ending fights with low mana but not oom and have to drink everytime). I only have problems in normal mode. Consecration rank 4 is always on my screen. And usually when the first mob is down I judge the next with wisdom. I could not do this there cause mobs were trapped or schakled so opening with wisdom is not a good choice for threat. Also as I've been in KZ only once before with a mage and did not clean it entirely I expected more damage on me even on a single mob.

Is it good to "blow" wings, AS, exorcism at the beginning when pulling a boss ? Or single AS is enough ?


Well I'll have a discussion with my gm(he's used to tankadins). But I'm waiting for tonight when he leads the raid, he couldn't be there yesterday.
thanks for advices :)
feel free if you have new comments ^^
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Re: questions about spell rotation and mana in KZ

Postby Bevan » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:17 pm

Evangelina wrote:First of all, I'm not allowed to aoe tank trash or boss...And I don't wanna hear anymore you have a low mana bar, you're lacking of mana during fights, stop drinking, etc...


These two are connected. The first time someone complains that you're stopping to drink after a pull, remind them that you recover it by getting healed, and the only way your healing is going to keep up with mana output is when you're taking a significant amount of damage. That means you need to be tanking 2-3 mobs at a time in Attumen's hall, or stopping to drink after each pull.

And when I tried to get more on me the offtanker just left the raid...


Sounds like a big part of your issue is immaturity. If your offtank can't deal with the fact that you're better at some things than he is, and would rather leave than let you tank to your strengths, you need to find a different group.

How to open with a boss ? If think I'm doing too much...as they are undead I usually pull with AW, AS, exorcism, JotC. By doing this I lose nearly half of my mana bar...


Generally I use AW, Shield, Exorcism, Judgement of Blood, then pop Holy Shield and go into my regular rotation. It costs a lot of mana, but a boss should be hitting you hard enough that your healing will at least keep you stable...Admittedly having to only tank one of Midnight/Attumen could pose a problem. Have mana potions ready, and try to explain to your raid leader that you'll be more effective and efficient the more things you tank at once. As long as you're not taking more damage than your healers can keep up with, there's no reason you should have to hold back/CC/use an offtank.

And when do I need to switch JotC with JoW ?


The only time I use JoW is when the raid needs the mana recovery. For my own mana pool, I have a lot more success by dropping Consecrate from my rotation, downranking spells, or simply popping a mana potion when I need it. If you're not taking enough damage for this to work, you're overgeared for what you're doing and might want to consider swapping in some lower-tier gear. I really doubt that's the case in your situation, though.

Actually it was not that bad for a first run. But oom everytime after the fights. And having my hp always on top, I guess it's me doing something wrong. Please help me I don't want the "bear" to be maintanking instead of me


If your raid is stuck in the CC-heavy mindset required with a warrior or druid tank, you're never going to be very effective. We're at our best when there are multiple mobs wailing on us, ensuring that we receive enough healing to keep our mana bar full, and generating enough threat that the dps can AoE at will. Paladin tanks are going to result in the fastest clear, pretty much regardless of what you're running, but the raid has to be comfortable with the way we do it.
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Postby Uthadanin » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:32 pm

At my gearing level you can very easily tank both attunemen and midnight... IDK if my healers wanted to prove a point the other night but for some freak reason they never healed the warrior "mt" and she got dropped really quick by attunemen, both hunters misdirected attunemen to me, and the rest of the dps was already on midnight... Needless to say I only lost a squishy dps happy mage and the warrior but downed attunemen/midnight without a problem.
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Postby Bryne » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:13 pm

ATTUMEN
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Postby Uthadanin » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:53 pm

Bryne wrote:ATTUMEN


I apologize.. simple extra couple of letters, lol.
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