Ability Theory: "Seal of Protection"

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Iliria » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:31 am

Just a random throw out....but am I the only person that has wished they could cast seal of the crusader on a mob via a judgement? Of course...not give them the attack power bonus. But by increasing their attack speed you..

A. Make damage less spiky, and Ardent defender less leapfrog-able
B. Increase the value of your block value (hah, think that one through!)
C. Further increase the strength of your holy shield.
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Postby Alixander » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:35 am

That's what I suggested earlier, Iliria. ^^ Give an attack speed buff (faster attacks), but instead of giving an AP boost, give an AP debuff. The net result would be that the DPS would remain generally static, but that each attack would be less.
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Postby Iliria » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:32 am

Alixander wrote:That's what I suggested earlier, Iliria. ^^ Give an attack speed buff (faster attacks), but instead of giving an AP boost, give an AP debuff. The net result would be that the DPS would remain generally static, but that each attack would be less.


Hahah, admittedly I didn't read through all of the posts...it was early morning when I started reading the thread and I had to get to work!
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Postby Minn » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:25 pm

What about re-working Vindication? It isn't part of the standard 12/49 build, but if it provided an AP or Melee attack speed debuff it might be worth another look.
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Postby Aergis » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:02 pm

Vindication does reduce AP by the means of reducing str. Problem is that it does not work on most mobs, especially bosses...

I'm guessing the reasoning was that it's completely different mechanic from CoW and demo shout / demo roar / owl screech. Because of this it has potential to stack with them, where the others cap at 30% regardless of which / how many you use.

If they would simply make vindication in the same mechanic as the rest they could then "re-allow" it on bosses, and then yes, it would be very powerful and become part of the "bread and butter" spec. Reducing the attack power of a boss who hits hard is far better than any 5 point talent we currently have, imo.
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Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:03 pm

That's what I suggested earlier, Iliria. ^^ Give an attack speed buff (faster attacks), but instead of giving an AP boost, give an AP debuff. The net result would be that the DPS would remain generally static, but that each attack would be less.


Its worth noting that every single other lasting judgement DOESNT actually Debuff the mob, but rather Buffs its attackers...

sort of like how instead of affecting the attack speed of the mob....I caused exactly the same effect with my idea...less intrusively.

look again:

Joanadark wrote:Seal of Protection
210 Mana
Instant Cast
Fills the paladin with a sense of duty for 30 seconds, increasing your Block Value by 50% of your Damage and Healing and causing all melee attacks to deal Holy Damage equal to 30% of your Block Value.

Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, causing their damaging attacks to grant Humility, increasing the target's Block Value by 5% of the damage dealt for 5 seconds and granting 100 Damage and Healing.
Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.




see what I did there?


notice how it scales for a bigger bonus against harder hitting mobs.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Candiru » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:49 pm

actually, I am pretty sure that judgment of justice debuffs the target.

Can't run away and has their speed capped to 100%... sounds like a debuf to me.

Sadly we can't judge it on ourselves to become immune to fear. :(
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Postby Myotis » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:02 pm

Candiru wrote:Sadly we can't judge it on ourselves to become immune to fear. :(


Judging ourselves...interesting :P

We could throw up a "mitigation" seal on ourself that lasts for 20 seconds and gets refreshed by ennemies hits.
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Postby Minn » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:12 pm

Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, causing their damaging attacks to grant Humility, increasing the target's Block Value by 5% of the damage dealt for 5 seconds and granting 100 Damage and Healing.
Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.


This seems problematic to me. 5% of what? Damage dealt before any mitigation is considered? Damage dealt after armor, but before unmodified block value comes into play? Damage dealt after everything? Too early and it runs the risk of being overpowered, too late and you have the opposite problem. The other problem I see is the potential to reinforce the role of a Warrior as MT. With both survivability and threat generation increasing with block value, Humility provides a big boost to a shield slamming warrior. At some point, the threat from BV for a warrior vs. the threat from 100 spell damage from a Paladin will be equal, but beyond this point it will be better to have a Warrior as MT.
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Postby Minn » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:20 pm

Aergis wrote:Vindication does reduce AP by the means of reducing str. Problem is that it does not work on most mobs, especially bosses...

I'm guessing the reasoning was that it's completely different mechanic from CoW and demo shout / demo roar / owl screech. Because of this it has potential to stack with them, where the others cap at 30% regardless of which / how many you use.

If they would simply make vindication in the same mechanic as the rest they could then "re-allow" it on bosses, and then yes, it would be very powerful and become part of the "bread and butter" spec. Reducing the attack power of a boss who hits hard is far better than any 5 point talent we currently have, imo.


Right, I think the problem with introducing an entirely new "different but equal" mechanic is that encounters would need to be re-tuned for raids using all debuffs available. Devs sidestepped the issue with Vindication by making bosses immune. Dropping the Paladin debuff into an existing slot like straight AP / Attack Speed isn't super creative, but it does provide extra survivability across the board, instead of only on trash.
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Postby Lore » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:04 am

Minn wrote:
Aergis wrote:Vindication does reduce AP by the means of reducing str. Problem is that it does not work on most mobs, especially bosses...

I'm guessing the reasoning was that it's completely different mechanic from CoW and demo shout / demo roar / owl screech. Because of this it has potential to stack with them, where the others cap at 30% regardless of which / how many you use.

If they would simply make vindication in the same mechanic as the rest they could then "re-allow" it on bosses, and then yes, it would be very powerful and become part of the "bread and butter" spec. Reducing the attack power of a boss who hits hard is far better than any 5 point talent we currently have, imo.


Right, I think the problem with introducing an entirely new "different but equal" mechanic is that encounters would need to be re-tuned for raids using all debuffs available. Devs sidestepped the issue with Vindication by making bosses immune. Dropping the Paladin debuff into an existing slot like straight AP / Attack Speed isn't super creative, but it does provide extra survivability across the board, instead of only on trash.


OR, it could just not stack. Hell, make Thunderclap overwrite it.
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:09 am

Lore wrote:OR, it could just not stack. Hell, make Thunderclap overwrite it.


DING! We have a winner.

There's no need or fairness in having a double AP/attack speed debuff on a mob, but only giving it to warriors is like saying that Druids shouldn't be able to pounce because Rogues can already gouge.
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Postby Minn » Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:26 am

How about something like the following:

Seal of Penitence:
Your melee attacks have a chance to grant Focus, a 20s duration, +25 dmg/heal buff, stackable 5x.

Judging this seal causes your target to become susceptible to Holy damage, decreasing melee attack speed by 1% each time it receives Holy damage (Maximum stack: 20).

The wording is far from perfect, but I hope you get the idea. Judge SoP, and all your holy damage will start contributing to the debuff: consecration ticks, holy shield, SoR, and so on, up to a 20% attack speed debuff.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:12 am

Minn wrote:Seal of Penitence:
Your melee attacks have a chance to grant Focus, a 20s duration, +25 dmg/heal buff, stackable 5x.


All my ideas seem to involve slowing or mini-stuns, too - but slower attacks mean we get less Holy Shield threat, less BoSanc threat if you're running that, and fewer chances to proc Reckoning...
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Postby Daromire » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 am

Yeah i don't think we need an ability that slows the mobs attack speed. Hp/mitigation seal would be unique and is needed a bit more I think.
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