Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:13 pm

It can reach a million and still nothing will happen, we know that very well :)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:13 pm

Worldie wrote:It can reach a million and still nothing will happen, we know that very well :)


Way I see it there's two possibilities.

1) Blizzard accepts the idea of a legacy server and it gets millions of people to play just for that and with that there's a massive wake up call for the developers that a lot of people absolutely despise the direction the game has been going since Wrath.

2) Blizzard rejects legacy servers and gives a firm no on the issue, in which case they get slammed across the board by a lot of people and suffer heavily for it in terms of PR just as they want to release legion. Personally, and I'm a Youtuber myself, a relatively small one ( 20k subs ), and first thing I'd do if they did that was boycott every single one of their games and then slam the fuck out of them for it and I wouldn't be the only one.

Going with either option would result in them having a major wake up call. Too many senior developers in Blizzard are surrounded by yes men in the company, they need this. For now they're going with neither option and staying quiet, they won't be able to do this forever.

The hordes of brain dead fanboys on the forums might be barking on how the people supporting this are irrelevant, but there's one small thing about that as good number of big name streamers, youtubers and even the main stream gaming media have thrown their support for this one way or another. So go ahead I say to these people, fight for Blizzard, WE ARE LEGION AND OUR NUMBERS WILL BLOT OUT THE SKY ON EVERY WORLD.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:46 pm

Still nothing would happen. Blizzard has clearly stated that they don't really care of those opinions. Even the damn Legion is more or less hated by the large majority of the "serious raiding" and even by the PvP community, yet they do not seemb to be interested.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:00 pm

It will be interesting the reaction to the petition.. don't really care either way still.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:07 am

Fact is, only a fraction of those who signed the petition would actually pay to play on a vanilla server. And the number who signed is only a small fraction of what they get for live WoW. It wouldn't be worth the expense.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:52 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Fact is, only a fraction of those who signed the petition would actually pay to play on a vanilla server. And the number who signed is only a small fraction of what they get for live WoW. It wouldn't be worth the expense.


Which is why licensing it to the guys that were already running those servers would be the best option.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:17 pm

Io.Draco wrote:Very

FUCKING

WRONG

You are right, paladins could tank and were succesful tanks. On some encounters they were better tanks than warriors. But do take note that in your post you are really quick to dismiss or greatly downplay encounter where Paladin Tanks are not really good.

Gear
But thing is, that when Paladins had crawl on their belly to reach gear requirement, Warrior were provided car and driver to reach that point. Paladins tanks were treated with kind of gear stealers stigma, first they grab caster weapon from casters and then paladins grab tanking gear from proper warrior tanks. This was communitys view on protection paladins. For warriors, there were option to have too much avoidance at the cost of Stamina. For warrior tanks, gearing was pretty simple process what really can't said about Paladin tanks. I remeber reading multitudes of Warrior tank guides saying that gearing Warrior tank for raids was pretty easy thing to do. (Well, gearing process to Vanilla raids were not so nice for all, that propably should be remembered so when guides use word "easy", they are comparing it how things were before. I doubt modern retail version find warrior gearing in TBC "pretty easy") I don't have any positive memories from Paladin gearing process, nor I have encountered any prot paladin who is missing TBC gearing. Most of gear for protection paladin was not designed for protection paladin in mind, it was designed for warriors. Most of our tier sets were terrible for tank paladins. It also didn't help that tank paladin required much more gear to become tank and there is seed of truth when it was stated that Paladin tanks needed gear from raids to tank heroics.

Talents
What allowed Paladins tank in was talent Holy Shield, with 8 charges and adding 30% block chance. Warriors had Shield Block 75% block chanse and 2 charges. Those talents are pretty damn similiar, warriors focusing on slow hits, paladins shining on fast hits and warrior's shining on slower hits. Druid other hand relied on armor and stamina, eating those hits. Druids were doing decent damage while not tanking, paladin tanks were excelent when tanking multiple mobs. But what about warriors? What were their thing? If we then simply focus on warrior tanking abilities, we see that warrior has array of abilities that's very useful on any tanking encounter (Shield Wall, Last Stand and Intervene) and debuffs they provided. (Sunders, Imp. Demoshout, Imp. Thunderclap) To me, Blizzard continued to keep it that way warrior tanks would remain MT position. I would also argue that warrior tanks were safe bet, tank class that most certainly would be able all or majority of current and in future content bosses. There were workarounds for those debuffs, like Feral Druid + DPS warriors providing them but I don't think people raided regulary without warrior tanks because it was considered painful or downright impossible. I know that people ran raids without protection paladins. I think most common complainment was actually lack of paladins (missing multiple blessings,like having kings and might, but not salvation) not missing Blessing of Sanctuary.

Community&Vanilla
People were so familiar with Vanilla class roles, it's no wonder that people viewed paladin tanks with suspicion. Horde had never had paladins, so that might be issue affecting hordeside as well, but not sure. Paladin tanks were rolling warrior tank loot, they required pretty hefty amount of knowhow to gear and how to prent Griouvous Bodily Harm, thing that warriors had clear toolkit already and tank Druids simply ate. Paladin tanks also was not nicely viewed they rolled on caster weapons, cloth casters had it rough when almost all casters took atleast few pieces of cloth loot. Kungen from Nihilum directly stated that Protection paladins were waste of raid spot and saw no merit having one raid in place of bear tank, so when guild racing for world firsts dismiss paladin tanks, that didn't exactly raise protection paladin popularity. Launch imbalances also affected communitys view on paladin tanks, but also gearing process as when warrior picked up any drops they could hands on, paladins ran Theck level calculations how and what gear should aim for. It didn't help that paladin tanks were pretty much treated as trash tanks or add tanks. Boss has adds? Pala tanks them. Boss tanking? Warrior tanks it with bear. While simplistic view, it was held true by many. Upside, nobody questioned who tanked adds. Downside:If you wanted to tank something besides adds, you met wall built from "That's not how it should be done, you are add tank, not MT" -communal view. I think you mentioned that you got raid spot on guild that hated paladin tanks in BC and really good question would be why they hated. Because that is brought up alot but when contested or asked about, anybody really can't give answer but remember well that feeling.

To put this crudely, paladin tanks were able to tank at all because we had similiar enough tanking talent compared to warrior, could wear warrior gear and we were treated as trash/add/support tanks. No, it didn't prevent us from tanking and we tanked despite pretty much everything was against us.

Worldie wrote:It can reach a million and still nothing will happen, we know that very well :)

Blizzard is pretty much going full radio silence on private server issue. Ghostcrawler on twitter didn't pick sides was it good or not, but was critical on radio silence. Blizzard is going to break silence on two occasions: 1. Pressure gets too unconfortable because of media. Currently not happening. 2. They announce licencing/vanilla servers. Currently unlikely to happen.

And as always, it's easy to sign petion in the internets. Just like protests, when 10k sign it, you know only 100 show up in demostration and only 10 if it rains.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Nooska » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:39 am

Io.Draco wrote:
Worldie wrote:It can reach a million and still nothing will happen, we know that very well :)


Way I see it there's two possibilities.

1) Blizzard accepts the idea of a legacy server and it gets millions of people to play just for that and with that there's a massive wake up call for the developers that a lot of people absolutely despise the direction the game has been going since Wrath.

2) Blizzard rejects legacy servers and gives a firm no on the issue, in which case they get slammed across the board by a lot of people and suffer heavily for it in terms of PR just as they want to release legion. Personally, and I'm a Youtuber myself, a relatively small one ( 20k subs ), and first thing I'd do if they did that was boycott every single one of their games and then slam the fuck out of them for it and I wouldn't be the only one.


3) Blizzard accepts the idea, and gets a couple of thousand people that will subscribe for vanilla - for a while.

4) Blizzard rejects the idea, and nothing impactful happens PR wise or with subscriptions / sales.

Face it, this isn't a new thing, and so far nothing impactful has happened in regards to Blizzard rejecting running legacy servers, why would it now suddenly?
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:22 am

A Official reply.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/564 ... Nostalrius

Shit is really getting real.

(I still think nothing will happen, in the end)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:12 am

Worldie wrote:A Official reply.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/564 ... Nostalrius

Shit is really getting real.

(I still think nothing will happen, in the end)


Obviously they can't tell the 200.000 that signed to fuck off, that would be stupid.

Of course they aren't interested in doing anything, that would be an admission that their current game is crap, but what they want and what they'll do given enough pressure is different.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:16 am

Thing is, the reply is just a bunch of obvious things everybody have guessed by now. Felt like reading a Politician's speech.

I'm curious though to see if they reveal what are they in contact with Nostramus' staff for.
Honestly speaking, considering they've basically been running their own WoW for a while and with possibly better success than Blizz itself, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up hiring them :?
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Nooska » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:39 am

Io.Draco you seem to be trying very hard to make Blizzard the bad guys for just running a business.

Their current game, while not to everyones taste, apparetnly has millions of fans that are willing to pay to play it.
Vanilla servers are definatly not a good business solution, it would cost too much to maintain, and too few people would actually play them for it to be an actual expereicne (remember, you would have to pay a subscription still) - yes a lot of people would flock to it at first, but all the ones that came in at wrath or later would find it horribly unplayable, and all the ones with rosetinted glasses about vanilla would either not have enough time to play how much was required back then (they've gotten older, have lives etc), or would find that their glasses were severely tinted.
That leaves a small smatetring of players that prefer vanilla, which is FAR FAR less than 200k, I would venture about 1-2% of those signatories would actually pay a subscription fee to play on an official vanilla server for any length of time.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:53 am

I'm tired of arguments to defend Blizzard's shitty business decisions that have ruined a game that I consider the finest I ever bloody played. I give no shit as to their reasoning as to why they did crap, everyone has it and I as a consumer can tell them to go fuck themselves. As for the millions that continue to play it, how long do you think that's gonna last and how much of that is inertia from players who have no other MMO to turn to.

Are players supposed to be idiots and accept whatever "good" business decision is good for the company and bad for us? I've heard that rose tinted argument over and over again, and it's all a bunch of nonsense. I am well aware of the failing of vanilla: I played it then and recently as well, yet for all it's issues it stands heads and shoulders above the vast majority of MMOs on offer today.

I am sick and tired of people trying to shut up of old school fans who have had enough of all the crap Blizzard has done over the years. Blizzard can do whatever they want as a company and similarly me and many others can shout at them when they screw us. Ultimately Blizzard will decide based on what they think will generate them the most profits.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:58 am

I'm still solidly confident that anyone that started playing in Wotlk or further attempting a Vanilla server would quit as soon as hit 60 or even before that.

Remember that running a server costs money, a lot of it, and 200k subs wouldn't pay back even if they were permanent sub (as in, would continue for years).
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:01 am

Remember that running a server costs money, a lot of it, and 200k subs wouldn't pay back even if they were permanent sub (as in, would continue for years).


Running a server today is considerably cheaper then it was before. The most expensive stuff is paying for all the staff to maintain it ( GMs and such ). You say 200.000 is a small number based on the false notion that only the 200.000 that signed the petition would be interested in playing: False notion, there's a lot more people interested then that and 200.000 subs is the kind of number that other MMO companies would kill for.

Hey when Runescape added vanilla servers they became the most popular severs in the game.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:38 am

Only thing suprising about Blizzards post was Nostarlius crew contact part. Pristine servers is dull idea to me, but merit to it is that it would get new content constantly.

On related news, Kronos has opened progressive vanilla server. It has MC and Onyxia available, rest will be added later. Que is going to be certain thing, starter areas are already flooded.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:45 am

Dion wrote:Only thing suprising about Blizzards post was Nostarlius crew contact part. Pristine servers is dull idea to me, but merit to it is that it would get new content constantly.

On related news, Kronos has opened progressive vanilla server. It has MC and Onyxia available, rest will be added later. Que is going to be certain thing, starter areas are already flooded.


The Queue is over 2000 strong.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:58 am

Dw they will close that too ;)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Dion » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:05 am

Worldie wrote:Dw they will close that too ;)

Possible. Run by Czech, so counter might be that servers gets moved to Russia. Then there is Warmane, 10k server which has multiple Ceast&Desist orders already and still running. PlayTBC coming online at somepoint in May, CoreCraft releasing when ready. Private servers are plenty and running, I honestly think that we have passed that critical point where shutting down servers has much impact. One of the reasons why Blizzard has at least looked on licensing those.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:23 am

Dion wrote:I have died leveling. Alot. I'm level 15 and my gear is still mostly white. Pulling two regular mobs is iffy at best, with "good" (meaning you have some green gear) gear it's possible, with mostly white it's diedie time, three mobs means death. Because gear sticks very long time, instance drops are meaningful and relevant for quite some time. Nelf wispform is most OP racial ingame in early levels because graveyard placements. Ding feels extremely satisfying even if it means only 1% more crit via talent tree. Eastern Kingdoms has whopping total of 16 flightpoints, one per area. Kalimdor has same amount. Mounts at level 40 and there are guides about how to get that money and where are best places to grind mobs for that money. Leveling feels pretty epic journey because it's hard.



I think this is the big disconnect here - people think they want Vanilla, when what they really want is hard levelling. I've argured long and hard for why I want long levelling (check posts on the Secret World), and most people react with "why the hell would you want that?".

But for some, a computer game is only fun if it's challenging. MMORPG levelling can be challenging - it is on Vanilla servers - but all challenge is systematically removed from modern mmos because "dying is boring".

Current levelling on WoW is totally awesome - when you get above level 20 or so, of course - the complexity is just right, you have interesting decisions, timing, whatever, depending on the class. Lots of fun little abilities for convenience or entertainment. And it's all pointless.

Because you'll never use those abilities. You'll never need to learn to play properly. You roll up to a quest mob, push random buttons, and it dies. You accidentally pull 5 of them, you might have to think a bit on some survival buttons, and they die. There are two issues: The tuning, as you may have guessed* and the number of mobs you have to kill. I think the ideal mmo levelling fight lasts somewhere between 10 and 30 seconds, with a risk of dying if you mess up. But that's simply unworkable with the amounts of mobs you have to kill while levelling. What they could have done was to severely reduce the amount of mobs needed, but instead they've made it so that you kill them in a couple of GCDs.

*Before I left WoW last year I levelled a Death Knight through Icecrown. I did not wear heirlooms intentionally, but still mobs died in a couple of hits. I switched to the green starter gear (lvl 55 gear in a lvl 80 zone) and now *some* mobs were *slightly* challenging! I almost got a full rotation before they died! Several mobs still died to a couple of hits. Sigh.

A "hardcore levelling experience" would be an awesome move by Blizzard, but it will fail because people think they want the crappiness of Vanilla, when they really want a bit of a challenge.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:32 am

I leveled 10->60 in vanilla as Holy Priest first, as Prot Warrior later.

Should I have called a clinic?
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Io.Draco » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:37 am

Worldie wrote:I leveled 10->60 in vanilla as Holy Priest first, as Prot Warrior later.

Should I have called a clinic?


Then you played Prot Paladin in Burning Crusade.

Yeah a clinic wouldn't be enough.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:39 am

Fun fact, I actually originally mained Prot War in tbc (leveled full prot up to 70 obv). I rolled my Pala to be Holy, but I exped as Prot as it was MUCH faster (anyone remind pulling 10+ mobs and letting them die on shield spikes? :D ) and played Holy originally at 70 as well.
Little I knew about what the future had for me...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby Passionario » Tue May 03, 2016 12:46 pm

Io.Draco wrote:So the petition reached 150k signatures but that's not the really relevant part. Relevant is that Mark Kern, the lead designer of Vanilla WOW threw his support behind it and the idea of legacy servers, promising that if it reaches 200k he will give it to Morhaime personally.

The words "Mark Kern" and "relevant" don't belong in the same sentence.

The lead designer of Vanilla WoW was Jeffrey Kaplan (Tigole). Mark Kern was a team lead - basically, a middle manager - in the art department, working under Samwise. Midway through TBC development Kern left with a few others to go start a new company, which he mismanaged so badly that the board ousted him as CEO. He also holds a significant grudge against the gaming press because of the coverage given to the aforementioned mismanagement/ouster, which of course means that now he's a GamerGater and tilts at windmills on Twitter. And, apparently, he's an unironic Trump supporter as well.

While I realize that he's just trying to interject himself into this argument in an attempt to draw attention, his endorsement does not exactly make me more sympathetic to that cause.
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Re: Blizzard shuts down very popular Vanilla Server

Postby halabar » Tue May 03, 2016 7:22 pm

Passionario wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:So the petition reached 150k signatures but that's not the really relevant part. Relevant is that Mark Kern, the lead designer of Vanilla WOW threw his support behind it and the idea of legacy servers, promising that if it reaches 200k he will give it to Morhaime personally.

The words "Mark Kern" and "relevant" don't belong in the same sentence.

The lead designer of Vanilla WoW was Jeffrey Kaplan (Tigole). Mark Kern was a team lead - basically, a middle manager - in the art department, working under Samwise. Midway through TBC development Kern left with a few others to go start a new company, which he mismanaged so badly that the board ousted him as CEO. He also holds a significant grudge against the gaming press because of the coverage given to the aforementioned mismanagement/ouster, which of course means that now he's a GamerGater and tilts at windmills on Twitter. And, apparently, he's an unironic Trump supporter as well.

While I realize that he's just trying to interject himself into this argument in an attempt to draw attention, his endorsement does not exactly make me more sympathetic to that cause.


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