DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

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DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Valar Morghulis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:50 am

Allegedly my DPS is too low. I got some guy trying to tell me to use SotR over Seraphim.
Here's my talents: http://i.imgur.com/fYUnusF.png.

Now, I know my mitigation could be better. I've only used Seraphim for a little while. I find it incredibly clunky but it's what a lot of people use and is by far the better choice. I really dislike the rotation and found using Holy Shield a lot smoother, and easier. But for the raid team I chose Seraphim so I don't hold anyone back. However, advice from other Maintankadins as well as theorycrafters, mathematicians, and log dissectors is always a good idea.

Basically, if I'm tanking I pull with Avengers Shield then do Crusader Strike, Judgement, Light's Hammer, Holy Wrath, Consecration. Prioritising CS/Judgement during any of those prior spells. As soon as I reach 5 Holy Power, I use Seraphim. And then use any Holy Power I generate while Seraphim is on cooldown to use Shield of the Righteous. I also use Sacred Shield quite a lot as well as Divine Protection whenever I can.

I'm being told I need to prioritise Shield of the Righteous over Seraphim by a guy who doesn't play a Paladin. My DPS is under 10,000.
I'm using Theck's Weak Auras strings.

Here's a couple of logs links:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WhHwBDqC6Z3VJK1M
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4vZ3bCBq27NAgwxn
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/c ... est#boss=0
These logs don't really do me justice. I sporadically take logs. I'll endeavour to capture logs when I'm doing my next LFR or Highmaul (LFR and HM roughly 2 days time).
My armoury: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/k ... ken/simple

Anyway, I'm sure some of you guys can give some guidance. I'm seeing a lot of people use Holy Shield with Holy Prism. While I like the passive approach to Holy Shield, I'm told Seraphim is to go-to-thing. I choose Light's Hammer as it helps with healing, and does AoE damage. I'm solely using Seal of Insight.

I know I've bolded a lot. Mainly important bits and talents.
Any guidance and advice is appreciated. Thank you in advance.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Worldie » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:36 am

A quick note: Seraphim is the "go-to thing" if you 1) perform the rotation perfectly 2) care more for your DPS than for your standard damage income.
If you take Seraphim, you are alternating periods of very high mitigation to periods of lower mitigation.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Jadhzia » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:54 am

It really depends on the difficulty level you're aiming. From what I saw in your armory link, you're mostly doing normal mode. Then you can mostly take whatever you're feeling confortable with. Holy Shield gives very good results, smooth performance and allows you to keep a standard rotation at all times.

With an ilvl lower that yours, doing almost only normal mode (casual guild), I'm doing fine with Sacred Shield + Light's Hammer + Holy Shield: my dps and hps are almost at the level of dedicated players in the raid, and most importantly my damage intake is rather smooth. My guid being casual, some of our players have a somewhat sloppy gameplay, or are slow reacting to things, hence I find the constant, smooth effect of Holy Shield well suited to deal with that.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Valar Morghulis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:29 pm

Worldie wrote:A quick note: Seraphim is the "go-to thing" if you 1) perform the rotation perfectly 2) care more for your DPS than for your standard damage income.
If you take Seraphim, you are alternating periods of very high mitigation to periods of lower mitigation.


How does one perform the rotation perfectly? I'm using weak auras and prioritising CS/Judgement over the other talents, whenever CS/Judgement is on CD I then use any other talents shown.
I should be pooling Holy Power for 3 - 5 seconds before Seraphims cooldown finishes. So that I can re-cast it immediately. Any other time, I should be essentially using SotR. Or in a tight spot, WoG.

Jadhzia wrote:It really depends on the difficulty level you're aiming. From what I saw in your armory link, you're mostly doing normal mode. Then you can mostly take whatever you're feeling confortable with. Holy Shield gives very good results, smooth performance and allows you to keep a standard rotation at all times.


I've considered switching. But as we're progressing through BRF on normal, I've decided to keep Seraphim. Once we have it down pat and on "farm" I'll then switch to holy shield. I find it a lot easier than Seraphim. But the benefits of Seraphim far outweigh HS.

I'm still not sure as to why my DPS is lacking.
Tomorrow (for me) I'll be doing a Heroic HM. So I can do some logging there.

Thank-you both for your input.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Berelyte » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:48 pm

So there's a couple of things I noticed with those 2 logs that you linked. On your Imperator Margok kill, you used Crusader Strike 77 times and Judgment 76 times. I see no Hammer of the Righteous at all, so I am assuming you are solely focusing on single target.

On your Kromog attempts, you used Crusader Strike 22 times and Judgement 22 times. This is purely a single target fight so it's easy to see how your rotation is going.

In both of these logs, they tell me that you are not doing well at using your Holy Power generators on cooldown. Done correctly, you will almost always have more Crusader Strikes than Judgments on a given attempt. Here's a log of a Heroic Kromog kill that I did: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/fQ ... &source=18
Notice my ability usage.

Next, I look at your Holy Power gains for these encounters. According to this log you showed us: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4v ... &spell=109
you wasted an enormous amount of Holy Power on Imperator Margok. That means that you were at 5 Holy Power, and used a Holy Power generator, effectively trashing that gain. You wasted 91 Holy Power, equating to 30 Shield of the Righteous hits, which is a LOT of damage. So I think I found a lot of the DPS you've been looking for.

If you aren't comfortable with Seraphim, don't use it. Holy Shield is perfectly fine and the tradeoff is a minor boost in survivability with a minor loss to DPS. Clean up your Holy Power usage, prioritize your Holy Power generators, and you should be doing better soon enough. Good luck.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Torquemada » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:13 am

FWIW, I started using Hekili recently for my ret rotation, but I've found it has pretty good priority for prot as well.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby golfinguy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:20 am

Seraphim being 'the' goto talent is too simplistic of a view. If you're having difficulty maintaining the buff, or simply do not like the rotation - don't use it. Holy Shield isn't 'that' much less DPS. Also, tanking adds gives Holy Shield an advantage as well. Its not really a Seraphim-over-all situation.

The 'proper' Seraphim rotation (requires Unbreakable Spirit) is something like: Seraphim for 15s, having 5 HP at the end of it then double up on SotR for 6s of coverage, then use DP for 8s of coverage while having 5 HP ready again to refresh Seraphim the moment its ready. This maintains optimal mitigation coverage for Seraphim - rarely any time without Seraphim/SotR/DP coverage.

If you're tanking full time, there is no reason you cannot get used to that rotation and run it well soon enough. But that doesn't mean you can't choose Holy Shield and simplify the rotation. Its a perfectly acceptable choice, as I'd be willing to bet my paycheck that your guild isn't wiping due to YOUR DPS.

I love the HA/Sera build - its fun. But I had to goto Holy Shield for the benefit of our raid, and based upon my own limitations. I'm a backup tank, only getting used occasionally - so I find it difficult to maintain the Seraphim rotation under certain conditions (add pickups, lots of movement, etc.). It was placing too much stress on the healers when I couldn't. And any kill that depends upon maximizing MY DPS, is a kill that isn't going to happen, Seraphim or not. Micro analysis of parses in that manner looses the forest for the trees and 99% of guilds should be looking at other things.

The biggest gain you'll see is more efficient use of HP, as mentioned above. This above any talent build.

Also - the opener. Start with Judgement rather than AS. Generates HP and gets its cooldown ticking earlier. BELFs can Arcane Torrent as well. Oh, and use BA pots (and pre-pot) - that will increase DPS and provide some added protection on the pull and whenever else you decide to use it.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Fenris » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:07 am

Having the same "my dps is shit problem" (most of the time i sit 7-9k dps behind my monk co-tank) but honestly i just stopped caring.

Yeah,that doesn't sound good to say it but it's not like i can do much better with an HS/HA build and i can't find in me a way to like Seraphim (i managed 38-40% uptime the few nights i tried it without any tracking mod set up for it but in the end it's just not a talent i like)
Last edited by Fenris on Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Yelena » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:34 pm

golfinguy wrote:Also - the opener. Start with Judgement rather than AS. Generates HP and gets its cooldown ticking earlier. BELFs can Arcane Torrent as well. Oh, and use BA pots (and pre-pot) - that will increase DPS and provide some added protection on the pull and whenever else you decide to use it.

Applies to Blood Elves only: Torrent pre-pull, Judge on the way in, Holy Avenger, Crusader Strike; Seraphim is ready to roll after two globals.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Valar Morghulis » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:20 am

Switching to Holy Avenger - I get a consistent 20k DPS.
I'm not familiar with "BA Pots" - might need to spell that out for me.

Anyway, when I go back to Seraphim for anything heroic, I'll give it a go with different pots and openers.
Taking the suggestions on board I got around 10 - 15k DPS rather than 8 or 9. However that 10 - 15 was not very consistent.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Kelerei » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:35 am

Valar Morghulis wrote:I'm not familiar with "BA Pots" - might need to spell that out for me.


Draenic Armor Potion
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Valar Morghulis » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:47 pm

Kelerei wrote:
Valar Morghulis wrote:I'm not familiar with "BA Pots" - might need to spell that out for me.


Draenic Armor Potion


I already use those :)
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Valar Morghulis » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:24 am

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/guilds/usercalendar/129092
Here's some updated logs.
More specifically:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dMXkWh1YnbRmCrNf
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/gFhxTWbVnKdcwYmQ
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Hpg67BZNDbGmVt83
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ntq8dV9f32WKzyZv
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JGvkRQLCXct4jqFx
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CNZTbtH48phFBdPA
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/P8RKVBX4nbDk1ZQJ
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WAryV2wm4kbpXHtP


I'm posting again to see if there's any further tips I can get.
I feel my performance isn't as good as my other tank buddy. I am unsure of what I can do to increase it. His talents are basically the same as mine, yet a lot of the time he seems to be a lot better. I switch to Seraphim for some fights, while others I stay as holy shield. For some reason I'm finding my percentile rank is a lot better in Seraphim, which confounds me.

However at the risk of me losing my raid spot. What suggestions can anyone give me?

Unfortunately, I really am at a loss for what can be done better. My self healing isn't great, which is what I find to be the only problem. However a few extra pairs of eyes is always good.

My thanks in advance.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby golfinguy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:18 pm

At first look, three things:

USE Sacred Shield
Push buttons faster (casts)
Use Holy Power better

Sacred Shield: I didn't look at all fights, but the ones I did showed really poor Sacred Shield uptimes. It should be like a 15 year old boy that isn't getting laid - that thing should get up early and stay up for the duration. You only need to 'fluff' it once in a while, should be easy to do. (and pardon me if that reference isn't as funny as I thought it was in my head)

Casts: For example on the Beastlord fight, you had 468 while your co-tank had 628. Thats a pretty large disparity. In case you didn't know - abilities are executed on button release, not button press. So press the button just before the ability is ready to ensure no gap in timing. Or just press faster/more often.

Holy Power: Your use of holy power should be better (and your co-tank could improve as well, just in a different way). You should also improve the rotation and prioritize CS higher. I didn't look specifically at cast sequences, but just counting the casts reveals enough. For instance I had to tank recently and have a H Gruul log to compare to yours (and it should be a very fair comparison as I'm no Mythic tank either). You had 46 J and 49 CS - I had 46 J and 64 CS... and my fight was 36 seconds shorter. This leads to better Holy Power generation. You generated 118 HP (with DP procs), and I generated 156. Simple prioritization makes a big difference.

I would recommend Theck's Weak Auras, if only for the cash register ding when you're at 5 HP. You sat at 5 several times and you usually do not want to do that, as its wasted HP.



And do not worry about rankings - its piss poor for tanks to be measured in that way. Stay alive and be easy to heal (Sacred Shield!, generate more HP, use HP better). Once you have it on farm you can look to ranking.

When tanking, I measure myself by damage taken and external healing required. End of. Until its on farm naturally, then we can find new ways to amuse ourselves... DPS.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Yelena » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:18 am

A couple things I noticed:
Arcane Torrent: You play a Blood Elf, and I don't believe I saw a single use in any of the logs I looked at. Unless you need to sit on it for an interrupt, abuse it for the free Holy Power. In general terms, it isn't going to make a huge difference; however it can be useful to sneak in an extra HoPo to get another SotR off sooner than you would have otherwise, get a WoG off, or help cover the pooling phase when you're running Seraphim. You can also use it pre-pull to start with a freebie.

Trinkets: Pillar of the Earth is a good TMI trinket, but fairly weak if you're concerned about your damage output. Also, your activated trinket usage seems odd; sometimes it looks like you're trying to line it up with a big burst of incoming damage, other times it looks like you're using it just to use it. In the case of the latter, you may as well just use it on cooldown. In current Normal/Heroic content the need to carefully time the defensive usage of activated trinkets is virtually non-existent; if the defensive use of those trinkets makes or breaks a pull, chances are there are other issues at hand which are in need of being addressed.
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Kyrora » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:21 am

So, first off.

I went Holy Shield, I find it's a lot better than the other 2.

the 15% extra block really kills it for me, meaning that I have to worry less about active mitigation.

It's also great for AoE fights, such as Beastlord Darmac - Picking up the pack and doing tons of deeps with the holy damage reflection - What isn't there to love?

At first, I did roll with Seraphim, and it was pretty good, I haven't tried Seals as Protection, but I know it's pretty good as Retri. To be honest, I swear by holy shield, and on a good fight I can do a good 15-17k Single Target

If you wanna check me out, - eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/terokkar/kyrora

And I wish you luck, hope this has been helpful!
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Schroom » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:10 am

it's no news that Holy shield is best for TMI....
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Re: DPS, Mitigation, and more. Protection Paladin problems!

Postby Jackinthegreen » Sat May 02, 2015 2:02 pm

For what it's worth, the rotation is CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS-X-X, where X is fillers like Avenger's Shield, Consecration, Holy Wrath, and Hammer of Wrath when it's up. You should regularly have about 3 CS for every 2 J. That's the best Holy Power generating rotation based on Theck's work. CS and J come before AS, even if you have a GC proc. You can get used to that rotation by whacking a training dummy.
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