Group setup for ZA?

Nalorakk, Akil'zon, Jan'alai, Halazzi, Malacrass, Zul'jin

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Group setup for ZA?

Postby Zeels » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:21 pm

Our small guild is going to take a bash at ZA. We are clearing kara now (prince down twice). The only doubts I have atm is the healing. We have two ace healers(priest + tree) and a shadow priest.

Now is that enough healing? The druid, could keep me up alone during P2 on prince, and the priest is pretty solid as well.

Any other recommendations? We usually run
1x Prot pala
1x Prot warrior
2x Rogues
1x Mage
1x Hunter
1x Warlock
1x SPriest
1x Resto druid
1x Holy/disc Priest

I think I've heard that you pretty much need 3 healers for ZA?
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Postby Invisusira » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:29 pm

Feral >>>>> Prot warrior.

A Prot warrior is completely useless where you don't need an OT, which is half the fights. A Feral will actually provide DPS.

And yes, run with 3 healers.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:34 pm

Our healers complained like you wouldn't believe when we just had 2 and a spriest, and they were basically done with T4 and had maybe a few T5 level pieces.

Heck, they still complain now when we bring 3 and a spriest. The healing reqs in ZA are pretty substantial unless you've got the dps and the threat ceiling to compensate. (The streaming full-clear video shows the eagle dying before a 3rd storm for a T6 run... as a T4+ raid group we usually have him to maybe 70% by the 3rd storm so our healers need a whole lot more endurance, and swapping healer 3 for 1 more dps won't help enough to balance that out.)
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Postby Cyberwaste » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:42 pm

Drop a rogue, grab an extra healer. I kind of like resto shamans for the raid heals and the extra bloodlust.

And yes, get a feral druid.

Otherwise, that's a pretty good setup.
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Postby Questioner » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:39 am

A prot warrior is fine if he has a full set of dps gear and time to swap before the fight. A feral is slightly better for ZA, as he can switch to cat and dps on the trash after finishing his target.

In your group, I would drop the mage or hunter and pick up a resto shaman. Windfury will be a nice dps boost for your whole melee group. So far we've found that Mind control > Sheep in ZA, and earthbind can substitute for frost trap.
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Postby Kamilie » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:13 pm

IMO, you need 2 tanks, 3 healers, a mage for CC, and a shadow priest for mana regen. That leaves 3 spots open.

1 prot paladin for trash, tanking bear troll form, eagle boss, dragonhawk adds, lynx boss part 2, malacrass.
1 feral druid for tanking bear bear form, lynx part 1 and part 2, dragonhawk boss, some offtanking, and dps when not needed. Can also root the guys that hit gongs.
1 holy priest with CoH for the fights where everyones getting damaged, particularly malacrass.
1 resto shaman for totem fun, and overpowered chain heal on fights where everyones getting damaged. And heroism!
1 holy paladin because so much awesome heal gear drops here and 1 more blessing!
1 shadow priest for mana regen (these fights are mana intensive) and dotting eagle "bruddahs" to death.
1 mage for trash CC and spellstealing the haste cast buff. 1 second arcane missles FTW!
So that's your primary 7.

1 hunter recommended for scorpid sting and tranq shot for lynx, even though he was nerfed it still hurts like hell. Can also help with eagle "bruddahs" and misdirect is always nice.

2 more dps... it's up to you at this point. You can get a warlock for more dots for eagle bruddahs and general AE. You can get a dps warrior for demo shout and thunderclap to make bosses easier.

Overall, though, I'd like to go with the above 8, then fill the last 2 spots.
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Postby Sthallas » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:46 pm

FYI, you'll do much better if you completely ignore the eagle adds on Akil'zon and focus fire him instead so don't set up your 10 man trying to take into account more multi-mob dps.

The required classes are probably:
1x Holy Priest (CoH spec)
1x Resto Shaman
1x Misc heal spec
1x Prot (Pal or War)
1x Feral Druid or Dps War (or Holy/Ret Pally with decent tank gear if your MT is a War)

and the rest of the group make up is all based on what else you have, such as a hunter is nice for Tranq and MD's but not absolutely required. A mage is nice for chain poly's but isn't necessary if you have an extra Priest for MC. A lock is ok but only really nice for a banish at Malacrass. You should have at least 3 non spell damage dps (hunter/rogue/enh shaman/feral/etc.) for Zul'jin so you can burn through Phase 4 but we've done it with 2 (including the OT) though it took longer.
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Postby Kamilie » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:12 pm

I think ZA requires two tanking spec tanks. A dps warrior will get raped by bear boss in either phase. That's why feral druids are so great for ZA since they can dps as well.
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Postby Garstone » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:18 pm

I run with a dps war as my OT and we dont have any problems though we havent taken down lynx or dragon hawk yet, just a matter of time
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Postby Pallypete » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:26 pm

Garstone wrote:I run with a dps war as my OT and we dont have any problems though we havent taken down lynx or dragon hawk yet, just a matter of time

Well, for dragonhawk boss, you'll definitely need a real tank for the boss himself, and you'd be better served on hatcher duty, so it'd be a good idea to have either feral druid or prot warrior for that. He hits too hard when enraged I think for a DPS warrior or ret paladin to tank, plus they have to keep ahead of the group's threat still, as the only ones DPSing the hawks are AOEers. A prot spec's nice on lynx too, as they're more likely to be able to survive solo tanking him for a few seconds if you bite it in the final 25% when he's enraged (warrior popping shield wall here can save the day).
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Postby Sthallas » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:34 pm

Kamilie wrote:I think ZA requires two tanking spec tanks. A dps warrior will get raped by bear boss in either phase. That's why feral druids are so great for ZA since they can dps as well.

Let's fix this...
IF your raid is mostly in T4/Kara gear then yes you probably should have 2 full prot specs for MT/OT though a well geared feral OT is the best scenario.

IF your raid is above that, ie. mix of T5/badge/or higher then you should be fine with a DPS warrior as OT, though as always Feral OT is best OT.

Thats why my previous post listed needs and situational classes.

When we 1st started the T5 prot warrior that originally ran it with me MT'd and I OT'd. Then once I got geared up he went to an hybrid dps/prot spec and I MT'd and he OT'd/DPS'd. Now I MT and the Bear OT's when needed and DPS's when not, though last week I tanked both phases of the Bear boss just fine since he DC'd right at the pull 8) .
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:26 am

We have only downed the lynx, bear and eagle, so bear that in mind with this comment.

On the eagle, if after 3 storms you have only gotten 30% of his health down your dps are horrifically undergeared, ours downed it in about 4-6 at most, he isn't terribly tough, what he needs is co-ordination on the storms (collapsing on the tank seems to work well if spotted, stand the healers at the edges of the square also seems to work well).

Bear boss it doesn't really matter what tanks him, as long as it has high armour and high hits, using an OT that isn't tank geared will likely be a problem (though threat shouldn't be as a pally starting the troll stage will out aggro the dps massively, then the OT taunts - gaining your threat - and basically leap frogs forward using you to stay ahead of the dps) from an armour / hits pov but not from a logistical pov.

Lynx, tbh I would let a protection warrior tank if you have one and are similarly geared, the lynx itself is barely a worry (stack some nature resistance for this fight on the dps / healers, shamans / hunters swapping in their buffs for the phase 2 sections makes the healing much easier, if you actually have some nature resist its a piece of cake). The reasoning behind this is shield wall / last stand, the final stage is nasty due to the potential of eating multiple lashes or lashes followed by hits. Geared as I am right now I top 18K hits, 19K with the warrior buff on, but at 17K 2 lashes or a lash + hit (or simply badly positioned after lynx) its way too easy to die. One thing to watch is that the lynx itself does seem to change targets occasionally and hit a nearby melee type, as such tanking away from the tank is preferred (as going into phase 3 on < full hits is not recommended :D).

Bear tanks can have hit box issues on this fight, though a prot pally can pick up both mobs in phase 2 (and indeed its actually easier to do so from our pov).

The trash in ZA is largely irrelevant, a prot pally at badge / kara level can mass tank all of it (I tanked a patrol of stealthed lions, the wandering patrol and two crocs by accident), however you need good gear.

Healing wise 3 healers is preferred (1 on each MT for fights like the lynx, and 1 for party) specific classes of healers is largely irrelevant though some hots could be nice for some fights such as lynx where you want instant heal after the lash.

DPS is again fairly irrelevant, you want a high dps group, however melee / ranged is fairly irrelevant, though for the dragonhawk it appears you do want some aoe (lock / mage?).

So in conclusion:

3 healers better than 2
1 prot pally
1 other tank (though warrior / bear bring different bonuses to the table till you overgear this place)
good mix of dps, making sure you have aoe types if you want to mass pull or take dragon hawk.
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Postby Io.Draco » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:31 am

you know a feral is the best for lynx since it can't crush
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Postby Gerilith » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:33 am

Feral + Protpally, 1 mage, 1 lock, 1 CoH-priest, 1 holypally, 1 shadowpriest, 2 offwarries, 1 rogue

That's our standard setup and it rocks. Noone needs Defwarries who do less damage than a feral and take more damage than a feral in the hard fights.
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:47 am

IO, depends how many hits / avoidance of your warrior which is better, and also if you trigger the hit box issue you may have a dead bear, much easier with 2 chars with the same hitbox imo
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