All about sports

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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:55 pm

I dont think any browns fans actually wanted Manziel in the first place, I could be wrong tho.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:08 am

They sure did when Hoyer was losing. Then Manziel gave them new definitions for suck and I think many wanted Hoyer back.
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Re: All about sports

Postby honorshammer » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:23 am

I watched Conner Shaw for his entire collegiate career (I live in SC). I think he could be something if given the chance. It doesn't look like there is much coming out in this QB class besides JW/MM (depending on what you think of those two).
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:15 pm

Jameis Winston is gonna be another JaMarcus Russell
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:05 am

It's funny, I've said the same thing a couple of times recently about Mr. WInston.

On the other hand, I think that Mariotta is going to be a very servicable QB. I think that his game is very Solid. Not sure if I would call him a superstar, but I think that he will be a Hasselbeck type guy, who flirts with success, but never really "gets it done".

As far as the Browns, I am pleased as punch at the record. 7-9, isn't terrible. It's not great, but it's improvement under a first year head coach. There are some things that need addressed as far as personnel, and quality of play on the field, but we need to do some housecleaning first.

If it were me, Manziel, Gordon, and Gilbert would all be cut. Done. See ya. I have no tolerance in my business for people who behave that way. I wouldn't expect it to be any different when they are doing something that pays them far more than what I make. You had almost a year to get with the program. You failed. You didn't take it seriously. You made mistakes. You blew off your job to do other things.

Fine. See ya later. I fired an assistant in July for those very same reasons.

I would also part ways with Busted Skrine Door. He can be a good CB, but he's also a PI Magnet who falls for double moves.
I would find a Veteran O Lineman who is good with being a "role player", who has experience at all three spots. Someone that can cover when a devastating injury robs you of a pro bowler.
I would sign Hoyer, if it is an incentive laden deal, with outs for both sides. If I can't, I would find a veteran / FA that I could sign.
I would keep shaw.
I would draft someone. We have a bevy of picks next year.
And then I would have a serious no holds barred, you are a QB on the roster, and have a chance to be the starter Competition for the job.
I would get a couple of run stopping Lineman, to add to a nice rotation of Dlineman, and see about fixing the gaping holes in the run defense at the line.

But, that's the easy "Fan" thing to do.

And, because this guy is the funniest guy I have seen as a Browns Fan, I give you the latest, greatest video from a guy so good at making fun at a football team, people plagarize his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ymsgHI ... e=youtu.be
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:58 pm

The funny thing is that the things you would like to do are similar to what Seattle is doing with Pete Carroll and John Schneider at the helm.

Percy Harvin is a distraction? Gone.

Any player not buying into the system, work ethic, etc? Gone.

Open competition at QB even for a 3rd-round pick? Check.

Veteran lineman role players? Check.

Build through the draft? Check.

The only thing you didn't mention was the constant churning of the lower roster and practice squad, sifting through the various FA and undrafted players until you uncover gems.

Thanks for Patrick Lewis, by the way - looks like a keeper.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:35 pm

I don't know about all that...

  • Golden Tate was let go to make room for Harvin, long after they knew Harvin was an ass and a distraction. Meanwhile Tate was solid and definitely a "Seattle system" guy. Seattle would kill to have Tate back. They gambled and chose the distraction. They chose poorly.
  • Marshawn Lynch hasn't bought into the system, but he's good and runs hard and that's all they care about. Maybe he won't get a new contract, but they sure as hell aren't kicking him off the team. If Harvin was producing like Lynch does, he'd still be on the team too.
  • Every team has an open competition for pretty much every position especially when they have no solid incumbent (and Tavaris Jackson was definitely not a solid incumbent). Plus there's a bit more to it than just competition. Flynn (a 7th round choice btw) was still the starter after the second preseason game, and then his elbow acted up. Wilson made the most of his opportunity but Flynn was not able to practice, or play in either their week 3 preseason game, or their opener in AZ, so there really wasn't much of a choice. That scenario likely plays out the same for every other NFL team.
  • Almost your entire O line (Okung, Carpenter, Britt, Unger) are young, high round draft picks (2 first round, 2 second round), not veteran role players.
  • Every team has lots of low round draft picks making key contributions and every team misses on some players and high round picks.

I get that you're a proud Seahawks fan. Seattle has done an amazing job, obviously, but they aren't particularly unique in mindset, nor do they have some secret that escapes the rest of the league. They just did it better than everyone else.
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Re: All about sports

Postby honorshammer » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:40 am

Where Seattle has really excelled is developing their lower round draft picks. While everyone talks about Wilson (3rd), Sherman and Kam Chancellor were both 5ths, Maxwell was a 6th. Last year's Super Bowl MVP Malcom Smith was a 7th. Both of their starting WRs (Baldwin and Kearse) are UDFAs.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:38 am

Hey, Pats are also known for that... Remember Brady? He's a 6th round draft pick. It just happens that Bledsoe got injured and Brady had a chance to show what he was made of
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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:00 pm

I just want to see the Browns build on the foundation that was laid this year. Good Coach. He may not have been the first, second, third, tenth, or 20th choice, but man I like this guy. I'm not sure about Farmer at this point. He seems like he has an eye for talent, but his first draft revealed a tendency to take guys without considering the distraction / annoyance / attitude factor.

Both of our first round picks are proving to be childish brats.

On the other hand, we SCORED In the UDRFA market.

Isaiah Crowell? I've been sold on him since the preseason.
Taylor Gabirel? What a great find.

IMO, we don't "need" Gordon. Sure, a talent like that is truly hard to come by, but we played well, and had a respectable passing game without him.

I think that the only thing missing from the Browns right now, is stability at QB, and another season or two to find a rhythm. If we can build, positive steps every year, It will be well worth it.

And it seems that the Angry Browns Fan is retiring. I'm... not sure how I feel about it. That guy built a great community of fans. Not of him, but of the browns. We came together, and relished in our joys and misery together. And now, he's saying that the video I linked to will be his last. I'm bummed.
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Re: All about sports

Postby honorshammer » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:51 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Hey, Pats are also known for that... Remember Brady? He's a 6th round draft pick. It just happens that Bledsoe got injured and Brady had a chance to show what he was made of


One hit in 14 years isn't exactly "known for that".
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:54 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I don't know about all that...

  • Golden Tate was let go to make room for Harvin, long after they knew Harvin was an ass and a distraction. Meanwhile Tate was solid and definitely a "Seattle system" guy. Seattle would kill to have Tate back. They gambled and chose the distraction. They chose poorly.
  • Marshawn Lynch hasn't bought into the system, but he's good and runs hard and that's all they care about. Maybe he won't get a new contract, but they sure as hell aren't kicking him off the team. If Harvin was producing like Lynch does, he'd still be on the team too.
  • Every team has an open competition for pretty much every position especially when they have no solid incumbent (and Tavaris Jackson was definitely not a solid incumbent). Plus there's a bit more to it than just competition. Flynn (a 7th round choice btw) was still the starter after the second preseason game, and then his elbow acted up. Wilson made the most of his opportunity but Flynn was not able to practice, or play in either their week 3 preseason game, or their opener in AZ, so there really wasn't much of a choice. That scenario likely plays out the same for every other NFL team.
  • Almost your entire O line (Okung, Carpenter, Britt, Unger) are young, high round draft picks (2 first round, 2 second round), not veteran role players.
  • Every team has lots of low round draft picks making key contributions and every team misses on some players and high round picks.

I get that you're a proud Seahawks fan. Seattle has done an amazing job, obviously, but they aren't particularly unique in mindset, nor do they have some secret that escapes the rest of the league. They just did it better than everyone else.


Good points on paper, but let me go through them:

There were other issues with Golden Tate including reported friction between Tate and Wilson. Tate was quoted recently mentioning Wilson as one of the reasons he didn't have the opportunities he desired in Seattle. While issues with Harvin were known, Carroll did cling to hope of a healthy and effective Harvin - a mistake that has since been corrected.

Whatever media circus goes on around Marshawn not talking to the press, or missing practices, or was he sick or was he punished, the bottom line is that he never gives less than 100% on the field, and that's entirely within the "always compete" mantra of the team. Lynch is also an extremely good and loyal teammate who is loved by all of the players on the team.

Not every team has open competition for the QB spot. This is for the same reason that QBs don't sub out on a play-by-play basis like the other players on the team. True, Jackson wasn't what we wanted for a starter, but Flynn came in a a prized free agent on big salary, and a lot of coaches wouldn't dare put a 3rd-round midget above an expensive signing. But in Seattle, open competition for every roster spot is a thing, and the coach doesn't care how a player was acquired or for how much money - the best guy starts.

Most of our starting OL are high-round picks. However, most of our starting offensive line spent most of the season not starting. We brought in guys like Alvin Bailey, Lemuel Jeanpierre, and the afore-mentioned Lewis. Among our high picks, Okung has trouble staying on the field, and Carpenter has been luke-warm at best. I was also referring to our defensive line where we brought in some guys like Tony McDaniel, Kevin Williams, Cliff Avril, and Michael Bennett who are used situationally.

Every team has lots of low round picks, but of the best unit on the team and perhaps one of the historically great secondaries in all of football, only Earl Thomas was drafted above the 5th round. That's tremendous value. Last year's Super Bowl team had 21 undrafted free agents on the 53-man roster as at the Super Bowl.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:33 pm

You don't get rid of your most productive receiver because he says he didn't get the ball enough...they ALL say that. They got rid of him because they couldn't pay them both. They chose the distraction. Had the distraction performed, he'd still be there.

Lynch doesn't like Carroll and Carroll doesn't like him, and that's besides his contract stuff. Lynch does what he wants when he wants because he's a hell of a player. The point is though, if his numbers weren't very good, he'd be gone. The Seahawks, like every other NFL team looks the other way when it suits them. Winning is more important than the "seattle way".

Flynn was not a prized, high priced, free agent, he was a risk. Flynn's body of work was all of like two games, he was a backup. Any team that grabs another team's backup with the intent on bringing him in to start, is going to have a de facto QB competition. Any team that has Tavaris Jackson as their starter is at least going to try to bring someone in to force a competition anyhow. Every team in that situation is going to start the season with Wilson, because Flynn was not physically able to play even if they made him the starter.

Competing for spots is a thing for everyone. There is simply too much on the line to not take an honest crack at starting your best players, and every year teams have surprise guys break in. Of course not every team has open competition for the QB spot, but then neither has Seattle the last two years.

4 of 5 starters on the O line have missed a grand total of 5 games between them all. Only Unger has missed much. Also, they missed on Eric Winston, he would have been your best backup (he's probably better than Britt outright) but he was cut. (Aside: Carpenter is a mediocre pass blocker, but he's probably your best run blocker and that's where you make your hay)

My point is that Seattle doesn't have some magic formula. They aren't doing things significantly different. They are doing things significantly better. They have a good staff with a coach that gets the guys fired up. They've developed guys well and have addressed needs extremely well on the FA market, and have stayed relatively healthy which never hurts.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:19 pm

Agree to disagree sort of. I agree there's no magic formula, but do I believe they do things significantly differently in Seattle.

Halfway through the 2nd season, the Seahawks had already made 502 roster moves. That's an abnormally large number even for a rebuilding team, and I believe it represents the fundamental difference in the competition for position and led directly to 21 UDFAs on the Super Bowl roster. The average team has 13 UDFAs, with the lowest number being 9, so 21 is quite anomalous.

The Seattle OL this year has had 8 different starting combinations, and 4 players started at least 3 games at center. Perhaps the number of starter-games lost isn't impressive, but playing half the games with a different OL combination isn't a good thing.

I get where you're coming from - all teams sign and release players - but the extent to which the Seahawks do it reflects a fundamental shift in philosophy from the rank-and-file of the NFL. I don't recall suggesting it was a magic formula. I will say it's a difference in emphasis.

I don't see the non-retention of Golden Tate as that big of a deal. He's a decent receiver who has put up good numbers this year for the Lions, but if you're a receiver in a passing offense and you play opposite Calvin Johnson, you should be putting up good numbers. I don't think Tate was all that special beyond that. He may have led the team in receptions, but that doesn't make it a large number of catches. Besides which, Tate was redundant with Harvin healthy, and even then Kearse was emerging as a reliable receiver who could make up Tate's catches. It's not ALL that they couldn't afford to keep Tate and Harvin. Take Harvin out of the picture and Tate still wanted more money than Seattle was willing to pay *for Tate*.

Tate never got the separation to take advantage of his YAC skills. It was a problem with all of the Seahawks' "pedestrian" receivers last year, including Tate. How he does after Seattle is pretty much irrelevant because sometimes a change of scenery changes a player. I remember a running back for the Seahawks who showed great promise but made too many critical fumbles - to the point that even as big fan of his I had trouble justifying my support. Amahn Green went on to have a nice career in Green Bay, however. Tate was pissed off that Seattle didn't offer him more money, which he can use as incentive to prove what a good receiver he is in Detroit. Good on him if he does, but it doesn't make him any better in Seattle.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:11 pm

Tate is clearly not redundant with Harvin. Two completely different skill sets and abilities to play different positions. Tate is arguably the best number 2 in the league. He has decent speed, decent rout runner, one of the best drop rates in the league and he blocks pretty well too boot. I agree with you that he's no world beater that is going to scare teams or stretch the field, but we are way off topic with this digression.

I'm not suggesting that leaving Tate go was a big deal, though he would have been re-signed if Harvin was let go. My point is that the cutting of Harvin is not some sort of example of dealing with a distraction that Cleveland should follow. It was, in fact, the exact opposite, a lesson that should be learned from. The team is weaker for having waited until Harvin couldn't produce to cut him while allowing a quality receiver go.

Agree to disagree on the UDFAs, but here's my take on it. In my opinion, it's the perfect example of the Hawks doing it better as opposed to doing something unique. Every team has a slew of personnel guys looking for the best players everywhere, even among the UDFAs. Many teams add a dozen plus UDFAs to their roster at the beginning of camp, every single year. Where Seattle is an anomaly is with the number that have actually made the team. That speaks to what their depth was like at the start of Carroll's tenure, their ability find and cultivate the specific talents they want, and it probably doesn't hurt that Carroll has recent college experience and probably attempted to recruit and/or coached against many of the UDFAs.

Given that Seattle has the most talented team on paper, and reality, it's hard to ignore their ability to cultivate talent.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:51 pm

It also speaks to over 500 roster moves in the first two seasons of Carroll and Schneider, which is a different approach to other teams even in rebuilding years following roster purges.

I will agree that talent in Seattle is cultivated - I believe there are excellent coaches operating in an excellent environment with the best training facilities in the league courtesy of Paul Allen's nearly limitless bank account. There's no salary cap on coaches or limits on how nice the training facilities can be. I also think the approach of Seattle to free agents is unusual in that they look for guys who have key qualities and back their coaching to turn them into players, rather than looking for finished products.

With regard to Cleveland, it will be interesting to see what they do with Johnny (distraction-who-can't-play)Football and Josh Gordon. The potential upside of Gordon is tremendous, but the lack of discipline is going to bite them. As for Johnny - well the handwriting was on the wall for all to see on him and the Browns took him anyway.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:47 am

Gordon's issues have all kind of been pot/partying related? If that's the case, then there is probably something there to work with. At the moment it seems like Johnny may not have the talent required of an NFL QB, if that's the case that one is easy.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Nakama » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:46 pm

I missed reading you guys talk about sports, especially the NFL, in detail. :)

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Re: All about sports

Postby honorshammer » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:44 am

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Re: All about sports

Postby Shoju » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:16 pm

The Seachickens are going to win the super bowl. And I hope that it's a victory over the Patriots. I want the patriots to beat the colts. And then I want to watch them get absolutely humiliated by Seattle.

On the other hand, I hate to type what I'm going to type. Manning should retire. It was a rough end to the season. He's getting old. The strip fumble was all I needed to see. there was no dive, push, or fight for the ball when it happened. He made a token effort at best to get the ball. When he's upright, and not pressured, he's the greatest QB in the league. When he is pushed, hit, hurried, etc... He just doesn't have it anymore. And that makes me incredibly sad.

I am surprised that Little Shannyhan left Cleveland, but I guess after reading some of the reports, I shouldn't be too surprised. There is still a lot of turmoil in the front office, and there were allegations that the front office was interfering with the game plan, and pressuring him to put the flaming brown bag of #2 behind center. We went from a Front Office that couldn't be bothered to care, to a meddlesome group. If this keeps up, I don't know that the Browns will be able to put it together. I was hopeful that they would be able to keep the staff together, and give it another season to see how continuity would work for the team. But, here we are, another season, and another new offense to have to learn.

With the AFC / NFC West schedule that the Browns have next year, I can't imagine that it's going to get any better for them next season.

That means the schedule will be:

Steelers x2
Bengals x2
Ravens x2
Broncos
Chargers
Chiefs
Raiders
Seahawks
49'ers
Cardinals
Rams
+2 games.

That's.... a recipe for disaster right there. Say you go 3-3 in the division. Then you go what.... 2-6? 3-5? against the two western divisions? Without continuity, next season looks lost already.
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Re: All about sports

Postby honorshammer » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:36 pm

Your 2015 Opponents are already known. No +2 games needed.

The Browns 2015 schedule breaks down this way:

Home: Tennessee, San Francisco, Oakland, Denver*, Arizona*, Pittsburgh*, Cincinnati*, Baltimore*
Away: New York Jets, San Diego, Kansas City, Seattle*, St. Louis, Pittsburgh*, Cincinnati*, Baltimore*

*2014 Playoff team

Arizona will depend on who they have playing QB. Denver might as well. SF still doesn't have a coach. Tennessee and Oakland shouldn't scare you. Jets, Chargers are okay. KC can be tough. (Aside: It was a loss to KC that turned around both the NE and SEA seasons this year). Seattle and St. Louis will be tough outs, but St. Louis has QB questions as well.

I have no idea what kind of cap space you have, but make some decent moves (Cobb maybe?) and draft well. Go 3-3 in the division. Beat OAK, TEN, NYJ, ARI or STL, and DEN (assuming no Manning) and that gets you to 8-8. Steal one against the Chargers or Frisco and you could have a winning season.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Paxen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:49 pm

Shoju wrote:On the other hand, I hate to type what I'm going to type. Manning should retire. It was a rough end to the season. He's getting old. The strip fumble was all I needed to see. there was no dive, push, or fight for the ball when it happened. He made a token effort at best to get the ball. When he's upright, and not pressured, he's the greatest QB in the league. When he is pushed, hit, hurried, etc... He just doesn't have it anymore. And that makes me incredibly sad.


Disagree. Manning had no arm strength at all, and the Colts exploited that - crowded the short routes and dared him to throw deep, or long throws to the sidelines. (Before you say "he overthrew his receivers!" that's an indication of lack of strength - he has to put extra effort on it to get it there, and that destroys the accuracy.)

The question is if it's only age or age and injury. There are already rumours about a quad injury. I've also heard it bandied about that older QBs wear out their throwing arm over the season (the example given was Favre). The Broncos and Manning knows all this, and hopefully they make a rational decision on wether he can come back for another season (maybe limiting the passing in the regular season) or if he's done. But we as fans and viewers simply don't have enough info to make an informed judgment.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:52 pm

My take on the NFC West next year:

I don't see SF in contention next year. They will have a new coach, new system, and probably a complete rebuild. Much of their talent is over 30, and little of it comes out of the past 3 drafts. They have a QB who isn't worth what they're paying him and has a contract that is easily terminated, so next year is likely to be his swan song. I'd stick a fork in them.

Arizona will be looking for a QB - who knows if they find one before their competitive window closes. If they do they will compete for the division. If they don't they are in big trouble.

St. Louis is a team on the rise, although I don't think they maximized the value of all those picks they got from Washington for RGIII. Still, the sheer volume of high picks accumulated over years of sucking have helped them. Stingy defense, tricksy coach - could be very dangerous, but I think they also have a QB issue in that I don't think Bradford is a next-level guy. I think they are capped around that 9-win level as long as he's under center. Not good enough in the NFC. Also may be facing the turmoil of a move back to LA.

Seattle should still be very very tough. One of the younger teams in the NFL, and the key players are just entering their peak years. More to the point is the coaching and front office will keep Seattle competitive. They are an extremely cohesive and functional group sharing a single vision. Next Man Up will continue as long as Carroll and Schneider are there.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Paxen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:59 pm

Koatanga wrote:Seattle should still be very very tough. One of the younger teams in the NFL, and the key players are just entering their peak years. More to the point is the coaching and front office will keep Seattle competitive. They are an extremely cohesive and functional group sharing a single vision. Next Man Up will continue as long as Carroll and Schneider are there.


The first big hurdle for Seattle is resigning Wilson. Having a top 10 (or even top 5) QB for, what, $500k a year? gives them a massive advantage over the rest of the NFL. When they do resign him they'll have a more normal amount to spend on the rest of the talent. It's not going to make them a mediocre team or anything, but it should have an impact.
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Re: All about sports

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:32 pm

Wilson's cap has been budgeted for, so the Seahawks should be fine in that regard. He still has a year left, so we get to do that "fun with maths" exercise where you give a guy X dollars over Y years to make his agent and ego happy, but it's really X dollars over Y+1 years so it's cheaper cap-wise. He'll be expensive, but manageable.

I get your point, though - that money has to come from somewhere - but we have so many role-players and cheap guys who produce that I rate the management's chances to continue that trend.
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