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Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:25 am

If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs:

Insight heals for 1% of max hp every 2 seconds
Righteousness gives 10% haste
Truth gives 15% attack power
Justice gives 20% movement speed (ret only)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:09 pm

Newsom wrote:If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs:

Insight heals for 1% of max hp every 2 seconds
Righteousness gives 10% haste
Truth gives 15% attack power
Justice gives 20% movement speed (ret only)


And the 1% heal per 2 seconds scales off resolve, can multistrike and can proc shining protector IIRC.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Nooska » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:40 pm

So prot uses Insight and Righteousness
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Nooska wrote:So prot uses Insight and Righteousness


Pretty much yeah. You usually don't wipe due to the tank doing too little damage, but if you do you could add in Truth.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:02 am

Newsom wrote:If you use it correctly it's one extra GCD every ~20 seconds to keep up two of the buffs


I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Note that some heal effects are based on attack power, so Truth does improve our survivability as well, though it's hard to say if being out of SoI longer reduces it by more.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:28 pm

Nooska wrote:So prot uses Insight and Righteousness

Not true at all.
If its a dps increase you use all 3.
thats like saying to not use consecrate cause it doesnt do anything defensive for us.
Only reason not to use Truth is if its a holypower loss, not cause to lazy, which btw everyone has tried saying its not annoying to play with due to castseqenze macro, which is still a bullshit talent, and dont forget you arnt even getting the selfheals from insight half the time with that talent, and insigt heals for more than the talent does, aka to keep the hot up, you are sacrificing half of your passive selfhealing. The best thing about that talent now is almost its haste component.

Thels wrote:I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Technicallity, but buffs can extend the normal 20sec duration if reapplied early, stacking similar to some dots currently do for some classes, I think Emp seals reaches 26sec or so.

Seraphim giving 1500 of ALL secondary stats is a huge deal, and will most likely be an absolute winner on every single tankswap fight (where the 2nd tank doesnt take cleave dmg etc) where as Holy shield should win on every upkeep fight, not to mention the dmg components from both of those talents.
Seraphim works as a mini CD cause it increases haste, critt, mastery(ap), multistrike, versitility and bonus armor(also AP) by 1500 with a 50% uptime, both a defensive and offencive cooldown.
Holy Shield especially coupled with +block things like t17 2piece gets incredibly strong, couple that with bosses that give you dots that can all procc holy shield (the dmg part) it ends up being your highest dmg source.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:46 pm

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 3906767872
Tanks are still massively overperforming, and we're planning some significant nerfs.

FUCK.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:56 pm

Im gonna have to agree with celestalon a bit here, altho I dont think the solution is that simple.
Cause much of what we are seeing now is tanks that use their active mitigation properly, survive more than fine.
And in some cases, classes even got more CDs to use more regularly.
With good play, tanks have very high survivability, and thats what they are aiming to tune down a little.

SoO was (imo) a pretty big failure from a tank PoV in terms of survivability, cause there wasnt much, sure you could in a few cases get trucked in a sec, but mostly you had the cloak there to save you anyway.
With the new "slower" lose health/gain health approach they are going for in WoD, it makes tanks incredibly easy to keep alive due to tanks dying slowly.
They dont wanna get back to tanks getting one or two shot again, meaning that tanks "sohuld" slowly go down, but chaining CDs and Active mitigation, good tanks get topped easily again and then taking ages to die again.

I don't believe there is a "quick fix" and it just really needs to be slowly tuned better.
Main problem (imo) is the focus on so many cooldowns outside of active mitigation, especially the smaller short CDs with short CDs (looking at DKs) and honestly some AMs are just a bit to strong as well.
But I would rather see a situation where you mainly have one big CD and then Active mitigation (and maybe smaller CDs to increase AM) than having 5 cooldowns + AM.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:05 pm

He also said that there would be a re-tune of content, as it is all hitting harder than Lei Shen (presumably heroic).

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 6400822272 https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 4145211393

and that all tanks would be re-tuned

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/5 ... 6273891328
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:11 am

Thels wrote:I don't think that's correct. You need to judge each of the seals once every 20 seconds, so you need to change to each of the seals once every 20 seconds. That means 2 or 3 GCDs, assuming you want to include Truth or not.

Treck wrote:Technicallity, but buffs can extend the normal 20sec duration if reapplied early, stacking similar to some dots currently do for some classes, I think Emp seals reaches 26sec or so.

Seraphim giving 1500 of ALL secondary stats is a huge deal, and will most likely be an absolute winner on every single tankswap fight (where the 2nd tank doesnt take cleave dmg etc) where as Holy shield should win on every upkeep fight, not to mention the dmg components from both of those talents.
Seraphim works as a mini CD cause it increases haste, critt, mastery(ap), multistrike, versitility and bonus armor(also AP) by 1500 with a 50% uptime, both a defensive and offencive cooldown.
Holy Shield especially coupled with +block things like t17 2piece gets incredibly strong, couple that with bosses that give you dots that can all procc holy shield (the dmg part) it ends up being your highest dmg source.

Hmm, so 26 seconds rather than 20, that sounds like the 30% that Theck was referring to. I still wonder, which of the 2 applies:

- When refreshing, new duration is always 26 seconds.
- When refreshing, the remaining duration is increased by 20 seconds, up to 26 seconds.

And, yeah, I can very well see something like:
- Empowered Seals - Best DPS option
- Seraphim - Best Survival option for tank switching
- Holy Shield - Best Survival option for constant tanking
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:05 am

Thels wrote:Hmm, so 26 seconds rather than 20, that sounds like the 30% that Theck was referring to. I still wonder, which of the 2 applies:

- When refreshing, new duration is always 26 seconds.
- When refreshing, the remaining duration is increased by 20 seconds, up to 26 seconds.

As per my response in the other thread: HoTs and DoTs get a built-in pandemic, which means that if it has $duration remaining when you refresh it, the new duration is min($duration+$max_duration, 1.3*$max_duration).

In this case, if you refresh it with 6+ seconds remaining, the new duration should be 26s. If you refresh it with e.g. 4s remaining, it'll be 24s.

Also note that the 10% haste buff from SoR is essentially "free." In 20s, you get 20/1.5=13.3 GCDs to play with. If you have 10% haste, that becomes 20/1.5*1.1=14.67 GCDs. So the SoR buff from Empowered Seals gives you the extra GCD required to maintain it automatically (though obviously it still may displace a filler if you have no empties to spare).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fetzie » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:06 pm

Isn't the buff from EmpS attack speed, not haste?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:27 pm

Buff is actually haste, aka decreasing GCD, so it is basically "free" 10% haste, due to your rotation changing however I'm mainly interested about its Holypower increase if it just pushes other things out of the way or not (thinking with both using 2 and 3 seals)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:30 pm

Fetzie wrote:Isn't the buff from EmpS attack speed, not haste?

It was attack speed, it was changed to haste in one of the recent beta patches.

Treck wrote:Buff is actually haste, aka decreasing GCD, so it is basically "free" 10% haste, due to your rotation changing however I'm mainly interested about its Holypower increase if it just pushes other things out of the way or not (thinking with both using 2 and 3 seals)

With 2-3 seals it should still be a Holy Power increase, since you should be able to recast seals during empties/fillers. It may not be a DPS increase though. Schroom did some preliminary sims in the AT&C Beta Simcraft thread, though obviously we'll need to re-run and refine them based on the new tuning changes (also SimC bugfixes).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:46 pm

Yeah, Im assuming its going to be a dps increase to use all 3 seals, or maybe use the two offencive to be a dps increase, idk what the designer of that talent thought.
As for ret, if its a dps increase they will use it cause, well its a dps increase.
For prot, if it doesnt hinder the holypower gain, obviously we would use all if it comes out as a holypower increase.
But even with the 10% extra haste, 3 GCDs within 26sec is quite a bit of damage as well lost out, and maybe they might just need to increase its strength to make it interesting for tanks to use all 3.
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