[suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

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[suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby oldboyz » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:36 am

what about enchant&chant should add some ilv
something like for each item : major enchant/gemm --> +3ilv - minor enchant/gem --> +1ilv

quite fed up to see all those reroll in flex/nm who don't care about these improvments

it would help most characters to reach treeshold more easily (dungeon, lfr, etc)
as usual, people improve only when they see interest. The end to the " i don't want to spend ressource until my loot is HM! even if i'm fresh LFR - i don't care to be optimal in flex"


with this little proposal, we may see everyone taking more care of their stuff (not to mention ego/epeen)
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Ironshield » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:26 am

In theory a nice idea, but would it differentiate between good and bad gemming / enchanting? Or could I put a vanilla int/spirit gem I my Ret gear and still get the boost? How would you define 'correct' gemming? Blizz weren't expecting us to be gemming haste at the beginning of MoP I don't think...
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:04 pm

Sounds like a nice idea, though I wouldn't give different values to different enchants from the same expansion as the more expensive enchant is not always the best enchant. More like:

Character levels 1-69 require a vanilla or higher enchant to gain the ilvl bonus.
Character levels 70-79 require a TBC or higher gem/enchant to gain the ilvl bonus.
Character levels 80-84 require a WotLK or higher gem/enchant to gain the ilvl bonus.
Character levels 85-89 require a Cata or higher gem/enchant to gain the ilvl bonus.
Character levels 90-99 require a MoP or higher gem/enchant to gain the ilvl bonus.
Character level 100 requires a WoD or higher gem/enchant to gain the ilvl bonus.

Don't care for the type of bonus it gives. Leave that up to the player. Ilvl calculates the strength of the gear, not if the gear fits the class/spec/playstyle.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby oldboyz » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:40 pm

in fact, initialy, i've thought about a more pertinent calculation based on item budget vs current spec (for instance, hit would be not considered for a healeur)
it would be also a different way to fix pvp/pve ilv

but some would have to decide how to handle substat (most obvious is spirit=healeur stat, but no that much useless for a dps... then what about overcap hit... then should we consider haste treeshold for some spec.. etc etc)
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Koatanga » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:10 pm

oldboyz wrote:in fact, initialy, i've thought about a more pertinent calculation based on item budget vs current spec (for instance, hit would be not considered for a healeur)
it would be also a different way to fix pvp/pve ilv

but some would have to decide how to handle substat (most obvious is spirit=healeur stat, but no that much useless for a dps... then what about overcap hit... then should we consider haste treeshold for some spec.. etc etc)

The main issue is that it would be a Bliz mechanic calculating the iLvl as well as determining what stats to weigh, and Bliz often gets the optimal stat build entirely wrong.

They design the game with certain pre-conceived ideas and design everything around it without thinking outside the box. They designed Paladin tank gear with dodge and parry because that's what the box says we want, but when Pandaclysm rolled out, we stacked haste and became completely overpowered because a haste build for Prot was not in their box.

Imagine an LFR iLvl gate at that time that would have valued dodge and parry and discounted haste on our gear.

Good idea in theory, but in practice it would just go terribly wrong.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:02 am

Besides, Hit, Expertise, Parry and Dodge are going away, so there's no point evaluating them now.

They could devaluate spirit and armor for non-healer/non-tank specs, but what if it's their offspec? Would it allow them to queue with only one of their specs? And what if people used it as a gem or enchant? IMHO, it's not worth the trouble.

"You should have an enchant on your gear" is unarguably good advise. "You should have enchant X or Y on your gear" is not. If X and Y would provide more ilvl while it turns out that Z is the better enchant, people would still enchant X or Y because of the higher ilvl, meaning they have an easier time getting picked up for groups.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby oldboyz » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:17 am

yup, that's why just a bonus on whatever enchant/gemm would be just enought to have people start thinking about it (which is the major step i guess for the mass)
once they start to be familiar with, some may start about more optimized

talking with some fresh casual in my gu, they barely know about it : gemm is the more obvious because you can see empty socket ^^ while enchant is quite mysterious, leg/shoulder being also different kind (may be item should have too an "enchant socket")
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Ironshield » Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:38 am

Now that's something I can get behind. You character sheet should explicitly say if an item could have an enchant but doesn't. Basically they should bring the advanced armoury into the game.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:16 am

Yeah, when I've switched a few items and upgrades around, I always log out and check my armory, to see if I forgot to apply any enchants/gems/profession bonuses.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby halabar » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:24 am

Ironshield wrote:In theory a nice idea, but would it differentiate between good and bad gemming / enchanting? Or could I put a vanilla int/spirit gem I my Ret gear and still get the boost? How would you define 'correct' gemming? Blizz weren't expecting us to be gemming haste at the beginning of MoP I don't think...


Likely not needed.

All the WoD enchants are secondary stats (and some tertiary I think). So there are no truly bad choices.. some might not be optimal, but won't be truly bad.

I expect gems will work the same way.

However, there's a problem with this ilvl system. In WoD, only ~6 slots will be enchantable, so it would give an artificial boost to those slots. And gem sockets are going to be random tertiary only, so again, it would be out of balance.

If gemming and enchanting wasn't changing so much, this would be an interesting way to encourage folks to do that. But with the WoD changes, it's not needed that much.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:53 pm

Actually, the fact that only a few slots are enchantable doesn't matter. All characters are able to enchant the exact same slots, so the total enchant bonus is exactly the same. The only possible exception I could see is Dual Wielders. Assuming we can no longer enchant offhands, Dual Wielders should only get half the ilvl bonus per slot.

Gems aren't affected as much, since gemslots are rare, but I don't see a big issue with awarding a small ilvl boost to it. Warforged is a 6 ilvl boost, and gemslots are supposed to be as rare. If you do have a gemslot with a decent gem in it, it should be considered stronger than the same item without a gemslot.

Movement speed on boots remains as an enchant, but will be the only tertiary enchant available.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Nooska » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:38 am

I have to say;
I'm failing to see what issue this would actually address.

If its simply awareness, sure, make it explicit on the item that it could be enchanted (gems are a given).

If its the rerollers for flex/normal (normal/heroic in WoD); well, knowledge of the fight beats out the small boost from the enchants; I would rather have a group of unenchanted/ungemmed rerollers, than a group of fully enchanted/gemmed firsttimers in a pug (and it can only be about pugs, as a guild group has social tools to handle this sort of thing)

Also, since enchants differ in price, not weigthing it, would just mean everyone was carrying around the cheapest enchant on a reroll (if they didn't care, and if they do care, well they aren't the problem).

This is, imnsho, thinking up a solution for a problem that doesn't actually exist - at least not in teh described format, or an issue that it wouldn't remedy anyway..
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:47 am

I think what they want to "address" with this proposal is giving people who enchant/gem their gear an easier time getting into LFR and other ilvl-gated things.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby oldboyz » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:21 am

why i would really enjoy it is that in the PU world, everyone has ilv as first criteria because it is an instant available information. i use a lot OQ, and what i see is "RL put a treshold at 500ilv : unenchanted/ungemmed with 500ilv will be allowed to reach the raid, fully enchant&gem with 499ilv can't candidate..." (quite same story in /2)
-unenchanted/ungemmed guy may be an oldtime raider with outstanding dps... or he may be a lazy newcomer... (and if he is a good one, could be even better with improvement)
-fully enchant&gem may be a veteran, or just a newcomer (but in this case at least he did the effort)


so yes, i prefer to be with a group of enchanted/gemmed rerollers rather than unenchanted/ungemmed rerollers xD

based on personnal xp (which it may be biaised) i especially think that rerollers are quite lazy about it
-because they don't want to spend too much ressource on alt, prefer to save for their main
-because they keep their ressource for much better stuff (game detect when you do a nice enchant, next loot is alway a better similar piece, which oblige you to redo the same enchant^^)

me too, i've a lot of toons, and i'm very bursar with them (quite lazy too with my latest reroll. Haha, my secret to be millionaire!)


but, if we have an incentive to take care, we may use more often gem&enchant : because if we can enter faster in scen/dunj/lfr-P1/lfr-P2/whatever, we will get faster better loot, so faster ready for real raid

PS.
regarding the different enchants availalbe, each may have a different ilv bonus (for ex. from +1 to +5 depending how much budget it bring). Same for gem based on quality
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:37 am

The goal is to incentivize the LFR crowd to enchant their gear and gem it.

There's a few problems with that...

First, the gem slots will be rare, so those really aren't an issue going forward.

For enchants, it's the non-tier slots will be enchantable, and giving an ilvl boost to those slots would make those slots overvalued. You would have to nerf that gear to compensate and that causes other issues.

Considering the other LFR changes that are coming, perhaps non-tier dropping instead of tier in WoD, I think this issue is going to solve itself. In WoD, it appears we are going to go from dungeon blues to LFR epics (or blues?) to Normal/heroic/mythic.

And frankly, for most of the LFR crowd, a few enchants and maybe one or two gems is not going to make much difference.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:34 pm

halabar wrote:For enchants, it's the non-tier slots will be enchantable, and giving an ilvl boost to those slots would make those slots overvalued. You would have to nerf that gear to compensate and that causes other issues.


No, you don't? Enchants don't actually raise the ilvl of a specific item. They would simply be a bonus to the overall ilvl. Everyone has the same amount of slots they can enchant, so it doesn't matter which slots, and the items that are being enchanted don't need to be devaluated for that.

Gems are a little different, but then again, gemslots will be an actual bonus and not count towards the ilvl, so if someone has a socket in their chest, and doesn't gem it, it's practically the same as the version without a socket. If they would plug a gem into it, it would actually be a slightly better version than a similar item without a gemslot.

Overall, what this would bring is an incentive for people to enchant/gem their gear, and allow those that do enchant/gem their gear slightly easier access into both hardcoded ilvl requirement content and pugs.

Before cross-realm normal/heroic I checked people out on armory, which quickly mentions if someone is missing enchants and gems. Since it's cross-realm, I rely on openraid's information, which unfortunately doesn't tell me if someone enchanted/gemmed properly.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Koatanga » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:44 pm

halabar wrote:And frankly, for most of the LFR crowd, a few enchants and maybe one or two gems is not going to make much difference.

This is a very good point. Giving a Donald enchanted epics is not going to make him any better at staying out of the fire or knowing how to play his class properly. That's the difference between LFR and the people who clear norm-mode raiding on the first week of release, not some missing enchants. Would proper enchants help him? Perhaps, for the brief period he's alive, but I doubt it would make a difference to the overall success of the raid.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:19 am

But anything you can toss at that, you can toss at the whole concept of ilvl.

The big problem is that gear is something you can easily check out. You can see that person X has a certain level of gear. Skill is just a lot harder to assign a number to. People quickly come down to "Must have curve" to measure a player's skill, which is far from accurate, but about as close as you can get. You could take it a little deeper if you check someone's armory, since it'll show you how many times someone killed something. If someone has 1 Garrosh normal kill, and didn't kill any other normal bosses, nor killed any bosses on flex/heroic, then he most likely bought a boost.

A score based on the amount of times you killed a boss might help. For example, for each boss, killing it on LFR awards 1 point, killing it on Flex awards 2 points, killing it on Normal awards 3 points and killing it on Heroic awards 4 points. Garrosh is double the amount of points because he's the endboss. Per boss, you only count the 5 highest difficulty kills.

Someone who has only done LFR but has done it consistently has a total of 15*1*5=75 points. Someone who has been farming heroic for a while has a total of 15*4*5=300 points. Everyone else falls somewhere in between there. Someone with LFR on farm and one Garrosh normal boost has 79 points, while someone with flex on farm except no garrosh kills (and doesn't bother with LFR) has 130 points.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby halabar » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:02 pm

Theis, I think you are looking for the proving grounds requirement... :-)
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby oldboyz » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:14 am

Thels wrote:A score based on the amount of times you killed a boss might help. For example, for each boss, killing it on LFR awards 1 point, killing it on Flex awards 2 points, killing it on Normal awards 3 points and killing it on Heroic awards 4 points. Garrosh is double the amount of points because he's the endboss. Per boss, you only count the 5 highest difficulty kills.


OQueue addon has a "dragonkillpoint" score
-but very hard to find the exact calculation : based on OQ activity or armory inport? what about old/latest boss weight and flex/nm/heroic?)
-it is account based (all my toons have same DKP) : which is good&fair for serious altalholic. but abuse can be done with a new toon you don't yet master
-it penalizes fresh raider with not yet any solid background, even if it a very good player

halabar wrote:Theis, I think you are looking for the proving grounds requirement... :-)

proving ground is indeed quite a very first cap skill check (but class are not equal :/ easier to do with some, harder with other)

-as RL i never look at it because it is a painful information to find (but yes, i would be a dream to have a color code or little symbol in the main character window so you instant see how far a player is good)
-i did the proving ground only 2 month ago, no time to test it earlier. is that mean it would become an early mandatary stuff?
i already anticipate how painfull it will be : once you start it, you can't stop after a first try and be shamely tagged bronze..
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Thels » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:55 am

oldboyz wrote:-as RL i never look at it because it is a painful information to find (but yes, i would be a dream to have a color code or little symbol in the main character window so you instant see how far a player is good)


Exactly. Having it show up in an easy to find spot would help a lot. It still doesn't help if players don't know the encounters, though, so it's not a replacement. For guild recruitment I could totally consider checking a player's Proving Grounds. For finding someone to quickly join a pug, not so much, too much of a hassle and not telling me what I need to know.
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby oldboyz » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:37 am

regarding the most intersting information i need when i need to recruit a PU is quite simple : i look at his armory about his history raid (i tolerate much lower ilv or no xp if the guy has good past xp)

so just thinking a new tab [pve] in character window with key pve information would be perfect
it would make sense as there is already a [pvp] tab

in this tab, i would enjoy to see :
-the proving ground progression
-my tier progression as in the web armory (number of kill by difficulty)



#regaring koatanga & halabar on donalds : indeed wont change much, but
-with a little higher ilv cap required to enter in the various place : we may avoid the worse of them until they spent a very long time in basic content to be full geared
-might some of them realize it, and start improve (principe of incentive ^^). it is a first step, far from righ stat&reforge (anyway, it will be simple in wod) and very far from optimal rotation/skill/learn fight.. but hey! Roma has not been built in 1 day xD
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Re: [suggestion] better ilv calculation ?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:00 pm

oldboyz wrote:#regaring koatanga & halabar on donalds : indeed wont change much, but
-with a little higher ilv cap required to enter in the various place : we may avoid the worse of them until they spent a very long time in basic content to be full geared
-might some of them realize it, and start improve (principe of incentive ^^). it is a first step, far from righ stat&reforge (anyway, it will be simple in wod) and very far from optimal rotation/skill/learn fight.. but hey! Roma has not been built in 1 day xD

LFR doesn't reward with loot depending on useful participation in the fight; it's just random numbers.

A Donald who runs LFR every week is going to get gear just as fast as anyone else doing LFR. Sure, your main will get ahead due to non-LFR raiding, but given the vast amount of grinding in Mists, working folks like myself had little time to develop alts, so LFR was pretty much it.
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