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Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

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Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby papst24 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:44 am

Hi all,

i have a question on how to use EF @25man HC raiding.
My problem is, that my raidlead thinks i heal not enough for a Tankadin. So now my question is:

Is it usefull or useless to put on every raidmember EF with 1 holy power? Or should i put EF with three stacks?

Thanks for any comments.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Worldie » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 am

Essentially using EF to heal someone who is not
1) you
2) someone in grave imminent danger of death
is a waste of Holy power. you need to use your HP to keep ShoR going, you are not a healer.

Perfect usage of EF would include using it on yourself when you got high amount of vengeance and 5 bastion charges to keep a strong HoT rolling, but that goes far further than "basic" raiding mechanics.
Optimal uptime on EF is very hard to keep and would very likely distract you from actually paying attention to boss mechanics if you aren't a top notch player.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby papst24 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:10 pm

ok, i understand.

he (raidlead) says, that in his 10hc alt raid there´s a tankadin which heals sometimes more than a healer does. so i told him that it is much easier to heal in 10hc as it is in 25hc as a tank cause boss hit´s aren´t so hard as in 25hc. is this so correct? i checkt some logs from other tanks like fraggoji (Paragon 25hc) and he also has no high healoutput like me.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Worldie » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:56 am

Frankly, your raid leader is an idiot. Even though tank healing for Palas-Monks-DKs is significant, it should never be higher than 1/3 - 1/4 of a real healer, and most of this will be on the tank himself.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Worldie » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:58 am

Prot paladin healing *used* to be extremely broken and comparable to a real healer before the Seal of Insight / Battle healer nerf in 5.3. Since then, it's similar to other tanks.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby golfinguy » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:53 am

I get a lot of comments about pally healing and threat being out of control. And in each and every case I find it comes from the Garrosh fight and no others. They base their opinions on one fight and thats it, its knee-jerk mentality. Not sure that makes one an idiot, but I'll concur in principle. :wink:

Garrosh hits like a truck and our healing and threat scale with it. I've reached 50% of a healers throughput on self-healing in that fight before (and adds are born with love of my flesh due to it). Doesn't mean I'm a healer - its just that one fight. Tell the raid lead to open his or her mind.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Worldie » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:23 am

golfinguy wrote:I get a lot of comments about pally healing and threat being out of control. And in each and every case I find it comes from the Garrosh fight and no others. They base their opinions on one fight and thats it, its knee-jerk mentality.

Incidentally, that sort of comments works for any tank with heals on Garrosh (pala, dk, monk), and any tank on garrosh fight has "out of control threat" expecially in P1 where he ends up getting every single add no matter what if he keeps using his aoe abilities :mrgreen:
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Thels » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:13 am

papst24 wrote:so i told him that it is much easier to heal in 10hc as it is in 25hc as a tank cause boss hit´s aren´t so hard as in 25hc. is this so correct?


No. The boss hitting you harder should not make it harder for you to heal. As explained already, you are not a healer. It is not your job to watch the other 24 health bars in the raid, only your own health bar. The bosses in 25 man hit harder, which means you get more vengeance, which means your SoI ticks, WoG casts and EF ticks are stronger, so you should be healing more. Then again, with 25 man there are more healers around, so there's likely to be more absorbs running on you.

This isn't really going into the Basic Training, but it would help if you posted a link to your armory, and a link to a recently uploaded log for warcraftlogs or worldoflogs, to see if you're really doing something wrong.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Schroom » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:45 am

yup jsut wanted to write the same thing. logs of you, + armorylink + the logs of the 10man your raidleader is referring to would be useful.

but keep in mind, to base "Healing" only on HPS-meters is pretty dumb.

about EF and when/how to use,
my good friend "Aedna" made a Blogpost about this on our Protpaladin Blog recently http://schilddesraechers.blogspot.com/2014/02/eternal-flame-das-mysterium.html. It is in German but I'll translate:

basically in order to play it the best possibly you'll have to ask yourself all of these questions in a split second in order do decide if "EF or not EF":

1. Is EF already running or not?

2. If so, how long will it take until it runs out?

3. How high is my current EF ticking?

4. how long will it take until my mate taunts off of me?

5. When am I going to taunt off of my mate?

6. will EF be more powerful if I recast it now?

7. How many stacks of Bastion of Glory do I got?

8. Do I use Holy Power I could use elsewhere (for SoTR) (this is mostly irrelevant if you have the 4 piece)

9. How much vengeance do I got?

10. How much vengeance did I have when I cast EF the last time?

11. Am I currently in a Vengeancespike or is there a vengeance spike coming pretty soon?

12. If I don't use my Ef now, will I waste lots of BoG stacks because I activated Holy Avenger?

13. Do I use EF + WoG glyph as a DPS burst Cooldown?

14. Am I in danger of Dying and do I need the basic heal as "Oh Shit-Button" regardless if the HoT will eb weaker than the one currently running?

15. Do I have to use EF on somebody else because he is in danger of Dieing or because I got Holypower I can't use elsewhere? (for example on the guy kiting Thok while you are waiting at the gate.)


all thiose question matter in your decision IF you should use your EF ;-)
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby golfinguy » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 am

Worldie wrote:
golfinguy wrote:I get a lot of comments about pally healing and threat being out of control. And in each and every case I find it comes from the Garrosh fight and no others. They base their opinions on one fight and thats it, its knee-jerk mentality.

Incidentally, that sort of comments works for any tank with heals on Garrosh (pala, dk, monk), and any tank on garrosh fight has "out of control threat" expecially in P1 where he ends up getting every single add no matter what if he keeps using his aoe abilities :mrgreen:



True - other-tank trying to pickup adds "Stop using hammer of the righteous!" Me "Uh - I'm not using it at all :) "
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Koatanga » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:59 pm

Just because I do tech support as part of my job and run into situations where even knowledgeable people overlook the obvious:

Are running Seal of Insight?

I still run across pallys in LFR and such who run Truth, and if healing numbers are low, SoI is the first thing I check.
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Re: Eternal Flame @25man HC raiding - how to use?

Postby Worldie » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:39 pm

And also if you are running SoI, and running Battle Healer glyph, get rid of it.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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