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THE paladin race?

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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:08 am

Arnock wrote:The only race I'm not fond of are tauren. I just thought the whole 'sunwalker' line was a little bit shoehorned, and I honestly think that undead would have opened up a lot more interesting storylines.

Perhaps, after finally exacting revenge on arthas, some of the forsaken could have found themselves lost and directionless, and possibly turned toward the light. I mean, they used to be the nation of Lordaeron, and some of the forsaken must have been priests or paladins while living.

It at least makes more sense to me than druids who worship the sun but are somehow also paladins.


Really like that line of thought on Undead, it could have started an entire foil to the current 'Forsaken is the new Scourge' story.

But on the other hand, I haven't had much of a beef (ahr ahr) against the Sunwalkers. They're not *paladins* in the 'organisation' sense, but the Tauren that turned to the Sun and start looking a whole lot like Paladins are a very interesting topic to discuss on multiple angles.

First, there's the Moon vs Sun dichotomy. Where the Moon is elusive, shifting and savage, the Sun is typically depicted as a constant fixture, unchanging and to a point, civilized. It makes sense for Sun-adoring Tauren to focus on very different aspects of life then their Moon-loving siblings - culture, determination, the unchanging aspects of life.

Second, and more interesting, is the implication that maybe you don't need to have faith in the Light itself to actually tap its power, that actually holding beliefs in line with the Light is sufficient. The Sunwalkers are typically depicted as forces of righteousness, more than the Blood Knights ever were. I'd wager that a Sunwalker hearing about the three Virtues from a priest of the Light would admit that, yes, this is a very sane way of living that hits really close to his order's ethos.

And thirdly, it raises interesting questions about the whole Elune/Naaru shenanigans. Maybe you DO need to have faith in the Light to channel paladin powers, but maybe the Sun is ACTUALLY a vessel of the Light, like our favorite space windchimes. Which could lead to an interesting theory I read about the Elune/Naaru connection - what if it wasn't about Elune being a Naaru, but about a Naaru transforming into Elune?

But to be frank, those questions are much more metaphysical than the Forsaken's much more personal and political storylines, and send us more on a mystic mystery story that isn't exactly standart Warcraft.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby bldavis » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:52 am

that just helps fuel my desire for foresaken paladins
it would help a race find direction, and provide a very nice redemption story line
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:30 am

Doesn't *have* to be redemption, actually. One thing I really disliked about the Sunwell patch is how apparently every single Blood Elf went from "muwhahaha, let's take revenge on the world!" to "omg we were such pricks, let's atone!"

Races aren't monolithic like that. I can see *some* Forsaken turning to the Light. I can even see them starting their own cult in the Undercity. Hell, I can even see Sylvanas letting the whole thing slide because

a) more powers at her disposal
b) political bargaining chip (See? We're not evil monsters!!)
c) she thinks she can dupe them in being her tools (à la Balnazaar)
z) shred of humanity left in the Queen Bitch of Lordaeron

But I really can't see the entirety of the Forsaken going throught a redemption story. Maybe the individual Paladins, yes, but no the race as a whole. I see those paladins more as a "My species doth protest too much" kind of guy, completely at odds with the rest of the Undercity.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby bldavis » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:52 am

i meant just individual paladins..not the entire race
the race as a whole i feel is too far gone, and it is only a matter of time before Sylvanis goes down the garrosh rabbit hole and goes from a tolerated leader to hated villain
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:17 am

Sidetrack-technique.

ALl this got me to think about the Blood Knight announcment we got for WoD. I always thought the current Blood Knight situation was clear and self-sufficient enough to not need further development.
I really wonder what they're thinking about - it feels so left field for the x-pack, apart from the naaru angle...
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:55 am

I dunno, I'm still not totally convinced about this "Light" thing.

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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Sagara » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:22 am

Well, I think we've yet to see a morally gray Blood Knight added since WotLK.

They're either background characters following orders, or decent people overall (if memory serves, it's actually a Blood Knights that calls Garrosh out on his attack of Theramore, and gets a meaty backhand for her troubles).

Although, to be honest, they haven't added that many Blood Knights in the lore anyway...
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Kal » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:15 pm

I view the Paladin traditions as convergent evolutions of religious practice, with restrictions somewhere between Druid and Priest. Player Druids are restricted geographically and temporally to when practitioners had access to the specific teachings of Cenarius, while player Priests are simply the devotees of whatever the local religion is. Paladins are naturally more prolific than Druids, as there are more traditions to choose from, but less common than Priests, as not all religious traditions have led to Paladin traditions.

Another thing I notice is that each Paladin tradition formed in order to meet a pressing need in their respective societies:

Human - The Knights of the Silver Hand formed to strengthen the ranks after the heavy losses of clerics in the Second War.

Dwarf - Though a few Dwarves were Paladins during the Second War, it was the need to recover from the losses of the Third War that brought most Dwarf Paladins to the Silver Hand.

Draenei - I don't know much about them, but my impression is that their military is primarily composed of Paladins. I would guess this reflects their militarized society (due to constant warring) combined with their affinity and proximity to the Light.

Blood Elf - Seemingly betrayed by the Light, the High Elves renamed themselves Blood Elves and formed the Blood Knights, binding M'uru to their will (also seemingly). What I find interesting is that the Paladin tradition already existed in High Elf society, and was only repurposed. I'll have to investigate this further. Anyway one cuts it, they use the Light and are knights devoted to their order and to the well-being of their society. That's Paladin, simply put.

Tauren - This one is the contested one, I see. It's just the newest in my view, which I don't think should negate it's validity one bit. They are not "Sun Druids". They are not any kind of Druid at all. They are Warriors who wield the Light. That's Paladin. Additionally, the formation of the Sunwalkers was a way to preserve Tauren culture and revive reverence of An'she in response to the influence of Night Elf prejudices via the cultural connection of Druidism. Tahu Sagewind abandons Druidism to help former Warrior Aponi Brightmane found the order (they both rerolled).

As for the other races:

Gnomes - Gnomes are a fickle race, not predisposed toward the formation or joining of regimental orders. Since they value individualism so highly, I doubt they would want to be Paladins, even if able to. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a Gnome Paladin NPC or two in the future, but PC Gnome Paladins seem unlikely.

Worgen - I don't know why they can't be Paladins, since other Humans can be. Were there no Paladins in Gilneas to train them?

Pandaren - Since PC Pandaren start on the Wandering Isle, they are restricted to that time and place. I would like to see them too. Other races have learned to be Monks from them, I don't see why they can't learn from us.

Orcs - Orc society doesn't even have Priests. Shamanism dominates so heavily that I doubt any Paladin tradition would form.

Trolls - Darkspear Trolls specifically have shown a high amount of adaptability as a society, e.g. the cessation of cannibalism (wink, wink) after joining the Horde, the synchretization of Cenarion Druidism and loa worship, and the Darkspear Rebellion. I think it's possible they could form their own Paladin order, but what purpose would such an order serve? Loa worship is very well satisfied through shamanistic, and now druidic practices. Also, Troll Priests are not really Holy Light worshipers so much as voodoo practitioners. It's still divine magic, being a direct connection to the spirits, but much less formal than any of the paths to the Light that have Paladins.

Forsaken - Paladins are immune to undeath. Yeah, there are noteworthy exceptions, but that just it, they are exceptional. I would be disappointed if they were allowed to be Paladins.

Goblins - Goblins are selfish, not selfless, so any Paladin order forming within their society is such a stretch that I would probably unsub if it happened. No self-respecting Goblin would want to be a Paladin.
Last edited by Kal on Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Era » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:09 pm

On Blood Knights from Wiki:

In the end the wizards devised a process by which the powers of the Light could be transferred to recipients who had not earned such abilities. Instead of feeding upon the naaru's magic, the blood elves would wield the naaru's Light-given powers themselves.


So if the power of the Light can be transferred from a naaru like that, surely it can be freely given as well (assuming that's how the current Blood Knights get their powers)? For example to a sad but wise, ill-fate, wronged-by-life Orc who truly wishes to fight to right the injustices of the world... :wink:
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:43 pm

i wish i could remember where i read it, but it was years ago

but basically the most powerful DKs raised by arthas were supposed to be fallen paladins, a la blackguards in the D&D cosmos..
the most powerful the paladin was in life, the more powerful they would be as a death knight in undeath

might have been changed, but i think that is the original plan for them
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:00 am

Kal wrote:Another thing I notice is that each Paladin tradition formed in order to meet a pressing need in their respective societies:

Human - The Knights of the Silver Hand formed to strengthen the ranks after the heavy losses of clerics in the Second War.


Slight correction: After the first war, before the second. The Clerics of Northshire were the first to train as Paladins after their exile to Lordaeron, which is why we had Paladins in Warcraft 2.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Passionario » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:07 am

Ethereals. Their bodies are literally made of light, they were driven from their home by demons and they tank with no pants on.

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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:39 am

I always thought Ethereals were Arcane energy, not Light. Hence them mostly being mages.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:18 pm

Passionario wrote:Ethereals. Their bodies are literally made of light, they were driven from their home by demons and they tank with no pants on.

Join the Protectorate. Become a Nexus Champion.

yes,,,please yes

hell just ethereals in general!
(i dont remember what thread it was in, but i do know at some point we were talking about future race options and one of my favorites was Ethereals given they could easily be a ton of classes such as warrior, paladin, priest, mage, lock, hunter(possibly), rogue, monk...)
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: THE paladin race?

Postby Era » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:40 am

And such character customization options!
Do you wear your bandages horizontally across your face, or diagonally? Or maybe you're a little crazy and wear them vertically??
Wearing no bandages is of course indecent.

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