Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Darielle » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:22 pm

The Prophet Zul had a vision of Garrosh's deal with Kairoz. Using the BIG BAD VOODOO, he forged a link between himself and Kairoz, such that he was later able to open to portal to Draenor.

When Garrosh's vision of an Iron Horde began to falter under Alliance and Horde onslaught, Zul was waiting. At a critical moment, he opened the portal, and the Zandalari quickly overwhelmed Garrosh and other Chieftains of the Iron Horde, putting themselves in a position of power, and the Iron Horde in their debt. The Zandalari mean to get to their natural place on this new world - rulers, looking down on everyone.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:48 pm

STOP THAT.

Why can't we have an instance where we kill Tauren?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:57 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:STOP THAT.

Why can't we have an instance where we kill Tauren?


Or at least have a steakhouse instance... :D
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Teranoid » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:08 pm

Yknow what Warlords needs?

More troll instances.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Thels » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:29 pm

Darielle wrote:Let's say that you can adjust your raid comp so that 6 people cover all loot needs.

- Run raid with 6 mains and funnel loot to them.
- Run raid with 6 new mains, the 6 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- Run raid with 6 new mains, 12 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- RUn raid with 6 new mains, 14 existing mains, funnel loot to new mains.
- Run raid with any new mains left + primary alts, 14 existing mains, funnel loot.
.....


That doesn't really work.

The number of loot pieces that drop depends on the number of characters that are eligible for loot. Characters that are on their second (or later) run, are not eligible, so they will not count towards the number of pieces. On your 3rd/4th way through with your plan, you'd get 1-2 pieces, rather than 4 pieces.

Also, with the gear homogenization, especially at the start, you can have at most 4 characters that do not share gear. Cloth/Leather/Mail/Plate with the Tank/Healer/Caster/Physical role.

But yes, that was the first thing that struck my mind, when I noticed there would be a mode without personal loot that was not locked out with the highest difficulty mode. I actually thought that was the main reason they went with personal loot for Flex, to prevent such shenanigans.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:50 pm

Nooska wrote:Yeah, I get that, I'm just wondering why Newsom is saying "[run] all difficulties at least twice (probably more) every week" - I get the concern of running all diff every week at the beginning (gearing up and what not), but running all of them twice per week - what am I overlooking here?


Because alts. Here's how it has been working this expansion for "hardcore" heroic progression guilds:

First week of a tier, only normal mode is available. Since the normal mode gear is superior to previous tier heroic mode gear, we want to get as much of it as possible for heroic progression. The way you do this is to run multiple mixed alt and main raids, and funnel all the gear to the mains. This tier we only had enough alts for 2x25 man raids in my guild, but many guilds run even more (and we would have if we were more prepared). I think Method ran something like 6 mixed alt/main raids the first week of normal mode.

We even continued this the first few weeks of heroic progression this tier since the gear gap was so enormous (thanks to flex) plus overpowered trinkets. We kill one boss on heroic, then all the mains who sat out + alts to fill the raid kills the boss again on normal. Repeat for the next boss.

It's not super fun, but if you want the gear needed to get a leg up this is how it works. It will be even worse in WoD (at least the first tier when people are in blues) with the added "fun" of Normal (current Flex) mode on top of this. No forced personal loot means we can funnel more gear to mains using alts.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:21 pm

That sounds horrible. I would argue this is the most pertinent reason to reduce ilvls a bit so normal/heroic gear has no attraction for mythic raiders.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:35 pm

That was part of the argument in favor of having Flex gear be worse than Normal gear from the previous tier, just so they wouldn't feel tempted to run content.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Newsom » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:36 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:That sounds horrible. I would argue this is the most pertinent reason to reduce ilvls a bit so normal/heroic gear has no attraction for mythic raiders.


Yeah. Wouldn't hate the idea of only allowing personal loot in Normal mode (current Flex) either. I think it has worked out great that way this tier.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:37 pm

At BlizzCon, we'd discussed some improvements to our Flexible scaling system that would minimize the existence and impact of any real or perceived "breakpoints." Our design goal has always been for the system to be neutral with respect to group size. Specifically, you should never feel encouraged to turn away interested players whose skill/gear level matches the rest of the group's, basic role composition constraints notwithstanding. But at the same time, you shouldn't feel like you need to go out and grab warm bodies if you have a perfectly serviceable raid already assembled. Clearly we have not yet fully realized those goals.

In general, the existing healing/damage scaling slightly favors larger groups, since boss health and damage scale up more slowly than does raid throughput. To use a specific example, an 18-player raid with 12 damage-dealers will kill a boss slightly faster than a 10-player raid with 6 damage-dealers (assuming equal skill/gear between the two groups). But it is true that currently some specific abilities exhibit breakpoints, where adding an extra player causes an extra add to spawn, or an ability to strike an additional target.

To help smooth out difficulty scaling as you add or remove players from your Flexible raid, we will be implementing one of our planned Warlords changes to the scaling system ahead of schedule. In the near future, several boss abilities that target more players as the size of a Flex raid increases will use weighted randomization rather than strict breakpoints.

An example to illustrate what I mean:

Today, Sun Tenderheart's Shadow Word: Bane ability afflicts 2 targets if your raid size is between 10 and 14, but begins to hit a third target at 15.

Once our upcoming change is in place, if you have a 13-player raid, there will be a 60% chance for each cast of the ability to hit 3 targets, and a 40% chance for it to hit 2. If you add an extra player, and thus have 14, there will now be an 80% chance for 3 debuffs to go out, and a 20% chance for only 2.

In short, with respect to this particular ability, adding an extra player will always give you an average of 0.2 extra Bane debuffs. No more breakpoints!

There will be a handful of exceptions where breakpoints remain necessary. Imprison on Sha of Pride is probably the most notable such example, where you really want to pre-plan who will cover which prisons, and having a random number of targets each cast would cause frustrating unpredictability.

There's nothing wrong with 14-player groups -- 14 players is a great size for a raid. But so is 15. And 19. And 12. And 22. We just want to help make sure that good players aren't being turned away from groups because of the notion that their presence will make things harder for everyone.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ?page=4#77
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:23 am

It's a cool change, but hardly a issue.

I don't think people actively tryed fixed setups for Flex... or did we get to THAT point? Pugs pretending to be super hardcore?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Darielle » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:29 am

That doesn't really work.

The number of loot pieces that drop depends on the number of characters that are eligible for loot. Characters that are on their second (or later) run, are not eligible, so they will not count towards the number of pieces. On your 3rd/4th way through with your plan, you'd get 1-2 pieces, rather than 4 pieces.

Also, with the gear homogenization, especially at the start, you can have at most 4 characters that do not share gear. Cloth/Leather/Mail/Plate with the Tank/Healer/Caster/Physical role.

But yes, that was the first thing that struck my mind, when I noticed there would be a mode without personal loot that was not locked out with the highest difficulty mode. I actually thought that was the main reason they went with personal loot for Flex, to prevent such shenanigans.


Well sort of. That's the use of a strict 20 people raid with mostly all mains to illustrate the sheer number of runs possible. Because you can mix and match alts into the game, it becomes a chess puzzle of alts that you don't care about gearing in the place of "mains". Because it's Flexible, you can fine-grain that even better if you make multiple runs happen at the same time, along with some critical mains (e.g. Tanks) just to trivialise what might be the hardest parts.

I don't think people actively tryed fixed setups for Flex... or did we get to THAT point? Pugs pretending to be super hardcore?


It happens a lot in NA supposedly. I wouldn't know because I don't have time to care about PuG Flex.
Last edited by Darielle on Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:34 am

Well the few flex pugs I joined just aimed for a proper setup hardly cared about the number.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:18 am

yes it happens...
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:26 am

Worldie wrote:Well the few flex pugs I joined just aimed for a proper setup hardly cared about the number.


You are still playing on EU though right?

I've played a few flex raids so far, no one cared about size...but I guess Americans would do it ( they generally care more about stuff like that ).
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