Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:27 pm

There's certainly quite a big difference for the child, when you compare the effects of this to an infant versus a 9 year old. I don't think it's generally ever legal (even under safe haven laws) to abandon a 9 year old.

I don't think CPS is generally considered a Safe Haven place anyhow, but that's besides the point. There are some actions that can be taken if you are having issues with your child (foster care etc.), but I don't think you can't just drop the kid off one day, there's a process.

That said, I don't know the details of this case, I'm just responding to the points you mentioned.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:13 pm

But see, that's what I'm confused about. Either way, safe haven or CPS, you aren't dumping said kid in the alley behind the grocery store and a dollar. So why is one abandonment and one not? Is it solely based on psychological reasoning, that infants haven't bonded yet? Then why is there such a short window for safe haven (depending on states, I've seen anyway from 3 days to 60 days)?

I don't have any monster spawn, nor will I, but it got me to wondering. Either way, the minor is being given into the state's custody.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:45 am

I'm sure the child's psychology is part of it. But also, if you've committed to being the caretaker of the child, then you've assumed a certain amount of responsibility. Even if you can't take care of the child anymore, you seek out help and follow the proper channels (even if it leads to turning the child over to the state) which are there to help you and the child. Dropping the kid off somewhere out of the blue is irresponsible to say the least.

You generally can't just dump a 9 year old behind a building or in an alley anyhow, they are mobile and smart. Odds are that pretty much no matter where they dropped him off, he would have found his way into the hands of a Safe Haven.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:19 pm

I know Stonekettle has been linked here previously, but this article actually hits a few of the topics we've discussed about what's wrong with our current system... and some potential fixes.

http://www.stonekettle.com/2013/11/take ... art-1.html
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:39 pm

http://bangordailynews.com/2013/12/02/p ... n-january/

I think I remember something similar in a novel... Oh yeah...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:12 pm

http://world.time.com/2013/12/09/israel ... l-service/

1)Maybe the security costs would not be so high if he would stop with the saber-rattling
2)And I'm sure he can afford it, given the 3 Billion USD Israel gets in grants EVERY FUCKING YEAR.

Then there's the whole Mandela being buddies with the PLO and Yasser Arafat back in the day, which obviously didnt earn him any sympathizers there.

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:28 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://bangordailynews.com/2013/12/02/politics/lepages-efforts-to-remove-child-labor-barriers-to-continue-in-january/

I think I remember something similar in a novel... Oh yeah...
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That doesn't strike me as being a very apt comparison. FTA:
“I’m all for not allowing a 12-year-old to work 40 hours,” said LePage to Downeast magazine for an interview that was published this month. “But a 12-year-old working eight to 10 hours a week or a 14-year-old working 12 to 15 hours a week is not bad.”

Based on his own experience as a child, LePage argues allowing kids to work at younger ages could instill a healthy work ethic and lead to other successes later in life.

.....

“We were just trying to make it easier for kids already getting work permits,” said Picard. “We’re talking about summer employment here. We’re talking about the small mom-and-pop places where minors serve ice cream and bus boys at a restaurant.


He's attempting to streamline the existing process, not put kids in the coal mines.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:32 pm

I'd buy that, if he were to say that kids earn full wage. That isn't the case.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:48 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I'd buy that, if he were to say that kids earn full wage. That isn't the case.


Kids are already getting work permits; the current process takes three weeks. Why not streamline the process?

And I'd argue kids aren't getting full wage because their work isn't worth full wage.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:01 am

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, etc. I can see this going horribly wrong, since it'll be cheaper to hire a bunch of kids to do factory work than adults, and at 10-14 hours per week they wouldn't even need benefits. And that would obviously never be a thought in a factory owner's mind.

Instead, why not leave it as is, with the kids who want summer jobs going around mowing lawns, running errands, or selling rocks. Or getting an allowance for doing chores and learning the same work ethic this guy is spouting off about?

And my information could be wrong, but don't you have to be 16 to get a work permit?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:33 am

Around here kids are allowed to work, how long and what job functions they can fill is restricted by age in work environmetal laws, and the unions have special "underage" patrols in the summertime (where many kids have a summer job to earn some money of their own), that visit the primary "suspects" and check up on whether the employers do what they should, and whether the kids know the restrictions.

Kids don't get payed full wages - the main issue with this is the 17 year olds getting fired as a birthday "present" because the employers need to pay fuul wages when they turn 18 (ie. age discrimination).

It works, no kids are amistreated because of being allowed to work, and the restrictions mean its not the negative values of child labor, but just earning money doing what they can do (that is deemed appropriate).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:58 am

Silly 'murrricans, never able to see the solution that stares right back from the other side of the atlantic 8)

Just kidding guys, different strokes for different people!
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:10 am

When I was a kid, I would sell shiny rocks to my neighbors, or stickers that my grandmother would bring home from the hospital - she was also a nurse - by the sheet. Never underestimate the power of a small child with shiny rocks and stickers, it's more effective at opening a wallet than Joel Osteen.

Then when I got a little older, I went around the neighborhood looking for odd jobs, things like walking dogs, emptying trash, doing chores or helping out with things. When I got a little older still, I started hitting up businesses in strip malls - print shops are usually ripe targets for kids, paying a couple cents per envelope stuffed for mailers.

Making it legal for employers to actively seek child labor in the US for less than minimum wage or the average for that specific position, no matter how regulated it may be, is a bad idea. It would shift jobs from adults who are already barely living paycheck to paycheck and scraping by to children who are cheaper labor. It's the same thing that happened back when they loosened restrictions on outsourcing jobs and a flood of US jobs went overseas. Except that instead of a kid from India taking a job that could be kept here, it would be a child from here that took that job.

Sure it would be good for the businesses. They'd make higher profits, at least in the short term. But as their labor cost goes down, so does the economy in this case. And we're already trying to dig ourselves out of a nasty recession that nearly tanked the entire world's economy. So let's stick to paper routes and odd jobs for the kids who are motivated enough to find them, and weekly allowances for doing chores around the house, shall we?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:04 am

When I was growing up my parents were too poor to give me an allowance. We would sell snap peas my father grew in the garden to the neighborhood. People in my neighborhood wouldn't give you money for shiny rocks.

You're missing the point of the article. Kids are already working; they require a permit to do so, and what they can do is already limited. Lawmaker is attempting to streamline the process so it isn't a bureaucratic nightmare. People hyperventilate and pretend he's trying to fill factories with child slave labor making poor Oliver Twist work 80 hour weeks. This is stupid.

Sagara wrote:Silly 'murrricans, never able to see the solution that stares right back from the other side of the atlantic 8)

What do they do where you live? I honestly don't know.

I think I have a cousin or something in Taiwan who started a business in his bedroom selling mail order cabling when he was in high school. He'd hire other kids in the neighborhood to do cutting and crimping. I don't imagine they got paid much, but I don't know what regulations are like there, either.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:50 pm

This has been out for a few days now, but it still kind of cracks me up.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/ ... r=yahootix

I'm betting this was merely an excuse for federal agents to play WoW at work. It's fucking genius if you think about it.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:13 pm

There was a news story a few years back about how people were using xbox live call of duty matches (or something) to arrange hits. I didn't give it much credence, because media + video games = hilarious purposeful misunderstandings, but I guess the federal government hasn't gotten that memo yet.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:44 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Sagara wrote:Silly 'murrricans, never able to see the solution that stares right back from the other side of the atlantic 8)

What do they do where you live? I honestly don't know.


Same as Nooska, roughly - very strictly controlled labor that mainly gets used for summer and weekends.

I'm guessing the fact that most of our contries have compulsory civil registers helps a lot keep the paperwork tidy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:07 am

Oh yeah, that too :)

(Generally, Europe is very authoritarian* in its build, and very liberal in its stance)



* to most americans I would guess - to most europeans its just the way it is, and it helps a lot in a lot of situations, like... say.. healthcare.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:06 am

I was working at the age of 12... in Texas. It was at a renaissance festival (with my parents working it as well.) Maybe because of that, the restrictions are different. Maybe I was working illegally... I don't know.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:53 am

Skye1013 wrote:I was working at the age of 12... in Texas. It was at a renaissance festival (with my parents working it as well.) Maybe because of that, the restrictions are different. Maybe I was working illegally... I don't know.


Which ren fest if you don't mind me asking?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:44 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:00 pm

Don't worry, I'm sure someone will also pass a law requiring men to purchase an insurance rider to cover Viagra in the event that they develop ED...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:49 pm

So, Walker compares his fight against the unions' to the 13th amendment...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnDxxq0Upb8

And...

Santorum claims Obamacare is Apartheid...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... epublicans

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:09 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:41 pm

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiinteeeeeereeeesting
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