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HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

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HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Incalcando » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:23 pm

Title might not be very self explanatory at first glance, allow me to explain what I have on my mind here. I dunno if anyone else will care about this, but I found it kind of interesting.


When they announced that in Siege of Orgimmar we are going to have item upgrades from the get-go, I was kind of worried that the instance will get outgeared way too fast resulting in content lasting less. However, here are some, in my opinion, interesting numbers:

T15 BiS item level was around 550, assuming full TF gear + cloak.
T16 is around 580, again assuming full WF gear + cloak.

Average team ilvl when we killed Ra-Den, with 9 weeks' worth of loot: 530 (item upgrades weren't available at that point)
Average team ilvl when we killed Garrosh, with 6 weeks' (we killed it in week 7 but it was an extended lockout) worth of loot: 572

As you can see, average of 572 is way closer to the BiS mark than 530 is and that is with a lower amount of resets. In any case, and here's the more important observation, Garrosh didn't feel easier than Lei Shen as far as the number requirements are concerned.

What does this show us? That Blizzard indeed balanced the bosses so they would still remain as challenging, even though the item upgrades were available from the start.

The question is. Do you guys think Blizzard will actually nerf SoO so more people can see the content? I mean for ToT nerfing was not really necessary, since you got your performance-enhancing meta gem + cloak + item upgrades 2 months into progress, which really made everything easier in the instance. Do you think a nerf is needed? Or do you think it's fine that the last bosses on heroic mode will not be as easy as Lei Shen was for people with close to full BiS?

Or maybe you guys felt that SoO was actually easier on the numbers and it's just me? :P
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Fetzie » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:40 pm

So far (8/16 killed, with Malkorok progress) is that SoO is a more technical instance. While nerfing the bosses would allow you to slack a bit more, I don't know if they would make the bosses that much easier. If you can't execute the fights, you'll wipe regardless of your dps (as we prove pretty much every week at Sha of Pride heroic).

Of course, we have yet to attempt Thok, or the final three, and I know they require both technical execution and throughput. So nerfing the instance may make those bosses rather easier. And to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind them holding off the nerfs for a few months yet.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Teranoid » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am

Well you also have to remember that since Siege is the last raid and they allowed you to basically complete your cloak day 1 this allowed them to completely balance the instance around the cloak as well as the ilevel upgrades.

Their entire premise of the item upgrades was to allow the content to get "easier" over time. I'm 10/14H and to be honest I think the difficulty is fine with the exception that normal Garrosh felt more challenging than the first few heroic bosses.

I'm sure there will be a nerf when 6.0 comes hopefully not like a DS nerf where everyone and their mother runs around with Garrosh mounts but there will probably be one before the end of the expansion.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Incalcando » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:20 am

I think the difficulty is fine as well, and I think Garrosh won't be trivialized to the point Lei Shen and esp. Ra-den were by the end of ToT
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Worldie » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:55 am

Consider the mount from garrosh is likely removed or dropped to 1% drop in 6.0 ;)
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Darielle » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:49 am

Worldie wrote:Consider the mount from garrosh is likely removed or dropped to 1% drop in 6.0 ;)


IIRC Cataclysm went through with the MoP changes and THEN the mount was made 1% only when the expansion hit.

In terms of items, consider that not only with Item Upgrades being available, but also with things like the Essences being available from Garrosh, the situation is markedly different. The main real difference is that where Blizzard managed to make some fights in T15 that were somewhat broken for a while, the main culprits that way were just Norushen in SoO (at least, on Heroic). Even Normal didn't haev something to compare to, say, Megaera in week 1 or Iron Qon in week 1, and beyond tuning differences, I'm sure many a guild stumbled purely due to graphical hiccups on Durumu.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Lieris » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:37 pm

Worldie wrote:Consider the mount from garrosh is likely removed or dropped to 1% drop in 6.0 ;)


Probably the worst prestige mount ever. :?
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Winkle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:04 am

The completetion rate on Garrosh HC looks very low though. TBH if you haven't already killed siegecrafter hc don't bet on killing Garrosh HC any time soon.

At 10/14HC and progressing on Thok i seriously wonder whether its worth spending the countless wipes on Siege, let alone paragons and garrosh.

As a 10man guild you're unlikely to see much beter than 572 ilvl gear so it feels like we're staring up at a cliff atm.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Teranoid » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:27 am

I gave up to be honest. Thok was starting to come in at almost 100 wipes and Siegecrafter would probably be just as much if not more.Some people quit. Some people transferred. I'm personally already in that end of expansion lull and spending 17 hours worth of attempts wiping to the same boss gives me nothing but a headache now and quite frankly I'm more excited to just sit and wait for the next tier.

It's funny how Malkorok took 3 weeks and Spoils took 2 nights and Thok has taken another 2 weeks. I really like Siege but I really don't care about finishing 14/14H anymore just due to the sheer retarded difficulty of the last few bosses.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:45 am

Random comment: I think it's cool if the final 3 bosses of the final tier of the expansion in max difficulty are actually veru hard and not a complete faceroll like in Ds.

They'll be likely nerfed anyway in 6.0 by the usual post tier patch if you really eant the achi-mount.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Xfighter » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:33 am

Worldie wrote:Random comment: I think it's cool if the final 3 bosses of the final tier of the expansion in max difficulty are actually veru hard and not a complete faceroll like in Ds.

They'll be likely nerfed anyway in 6.0 by the usual post tier patch if you really eant the achi-mount.

I'm enjoying the difficulty of the last few from what I've observed from others progressing on them seeing as my guild is still on Siegecrafter.


What bothers me though is the sheer ramp up in group-comp requirements from the rest of the instance in a 10-man setting. Not to mention watching various guilds both 10 and 25s have different experiences on the last 3 than each other, simply from the raid size. The tuning between each really wasn't balanced as much as the rest of the fights.

Example: You'll be hard pressed to find a 10-man who killed Siegecrafter in <150-200 wipes, while its pretty common place for 25s to take <100-150 to down it. Paragons gets flipped due to the spacial area available, and 10s get it faster on average than 25s. Only to be flipped once again once you get to Garrosh due to having to deal with nearly every mechanic in the same quantity/worse of a ratio compared to a 25 on the fight.



The item upgrades have had a noticeable affect on progression & numbers overall, but honestly the difference is more noticed by way of someone being lucky and getting a good warforged item (weapon, trinket) to drop for someone than a weeks worth of upgrades on other items.

For these reasons, I'm thankful for the WoD changes to know this will be the last time things are uneven raiding wise =).

P.S. I also expect nerfs to roll in closer to the end - but you have to keep in mind if it's just a simple 10-20% nerf, with all mechanics staying in tact, fights like Siegecrafter and Paragons will still be significant walls to mid-range heroic guilds due to the sheer mechanics, and a 20% nerf to abilities on Siege... will still typically result in a 2-shot by the mechanics. (Garrosh a bit of an exception, since every source says Gear >>> all else in terms of progressing/repeating Garrosh kills easier, as it's more of a gear check than mechanics overall)
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Winkle » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:54 am

Worldie wrote:Random comment: I think it's cool if the final 3 bosses of the final tier of the expansion in max difficulty are actually veru hard and not a complete faceroll like in Ds.

They'll be likely nerfed anyway in 6.0 by the usual post tier patch if you really eant the achi-mount.


Yeah i'm not really against them having very hard bosses, just not sure whether i'm compelled to spend so long attempting to kill them.

Spent 150+ wipes in Lei Shen HC but somehow that didn't feel like such a challenge, maybe because he was the last boss.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Darielle » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:37 pm

The way Lei Shen was set up, wiping on him didn't feel like a challenge so much as "Oh man, why are you STILL making a mistake on that and whining about RNG?"

P.S. I also expect nerfs to roll in closer to the end - but you have to keep in mind if it's just a simple 10-20% nerf, with all mechanics staying in tact, fights like Siegecrafter and Paragons will still be significant walls to mid-range heroic guilds due to the sheer mechanics, and a 20% nerf to abilities on Siege... will still typically result in a 2-shot by the mechanics. (Garrosh a bit of an exception, since every source says Gear >>> all else in terms of progressing/repeating Garrosh kills easier, as it's more of a gear check than mechanics overall)


IDK,

20% nerf to Siegecrafter, if it includes adds, will mean that pretty much everyone can shut one person off the Belt (whether they do 2-man or 3-man atm) and SEVERELY cripple the fight.
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Re: HC progression and item upgrades in T16 compared to T15

Postby Incalcando » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:24 pm

Garrosh is a "gearcheck" fight, but by the time you reach him almost your entire team will have close to BiS loot. This is the fourth week that we killed him and sure, it's a bit easier on the DPS requirements since my guild has 3-4 ilvls higher on average but other than that it still feels like the toughest fight in there.
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