what about LFR?

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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:37 pm

They need an ELO system for LFR... if you do the run, actually try (use cds, do more than just auto-attack, actually play the role you queue for) and kill the bosses, your ELO goes up. If you afk/get kicked repeatedly/consistently die at the beginning of a fight to the exact same mechanics/drop mid-fight, your ELO goes down. If you guild queue (covering a majority of the LFR raid) your ELO is unaffected (to prevent people from guild queueing to raise their ELO then afking from then on.)

From there... if your raid's overall ELO is below a certain threshold... remove Determination, as you clearly aren't trying hard enough for that buff to ever make a difference.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:11 am

While i'd like some sort of rating system, sadly that would defeat the point of LFR.

LFR is a way to allow even the baddest of the bads to see content. If a person gets to 0 Elo somehow, then he's going to be mixed with other 0 Elo people, probably the group wont even be able to pass the trashs. So even if a person is bad but is genuinely trying to improve, he won't even get the chance to because the group will keep wiping to even the simples mechanic.

Won't work.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Paxen » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:33 am

If blizzard implemented ELO, they'd use to it to ensure that all runs had a mix of good and bad players so that everybody got to see the entire raid.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Amirya » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:42 am

But there'd be another problem, mostly 'cause I'm unfamiliar with this concept.

Tonight, on Megaera, we wiped twice because the idiot warrior tank decided he was going to tank the blue head, so my roommate got to tank the red head until he died.

Is my roommate then penalized for dying, for "pulling aggro" or is the warrior penalized for being a full on retard?
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 am

Paxen wrote:If blizzard implemented ELO, they'd use to it to ensure that all runs had a mix of good and bad players so that everybody got to see the entire raid.

Which is essentially how LFR is composed now, so I wouldn't see the point of putting the system in place :P
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:22 am

The idea being, if you're bad, but at least trying, your ELO shouldn't fall to the point of being unable to complete LFR, but if you are consistently afk/getting reported or kicked for trolling/not even putting forth some sort of effort in what is intended to be the simplest form of raiding in existence... then you don't deserve the loot and should just youtube the content...

As far as getting forced into tanking because the actual tanks die... I'd argue that if you queue as dps and then heal or tank... that's less of an issue than people queueing as heals/tanks and instead dpsing (or afking.)
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby oldboyz » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:51 am

or instead of "ELO", call it "karma" :D


regarding a raid full of low ELOs/karma :
-those who slak deserve it... end of story
-for those who are unfortunalty trying the wrong way... well they have to figure a better way, and pray to improve enought while wiping to get a little better elo and then be pop with a better raid
(and yes, raid should be a little mixed, so when a low karma jump in a good raid, he has an opportunity to show he deserves a better ranking, and leave hell :mrgreen: )

i'm quite sure ELO (or whatevr name) is the best way to help casual and "bad" player : they have an indicator that tell them how much they can improve (if they want to), while most important : it protect all the average players from the very idiot who ruin their fun


PS. regarind Maegera exemple : it could be managed with a simple rule "tank agro same head --> bad". so idiot warrior get electick shock the first time he taunt again the blue head, other tank also taunt blue head (yes, no one on red..), if idiot retaunt blue --> re-electick shock, until he finally move to another head or die from many eletrick shock! :mrgreen: this process may wipe the raid once (because no one on red), but then, all know it is idiot tank's fault
yes, for each fight, dev would have to figure a lot of rules based on his specific mechanics :mrgreen: i think blizz earn enought money to allow us a better LFR experience

so in the end, the very very idiot who refuse to understand : they died from too much electrick shock, thank for the natural selection :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
i'm quite sure for 1 of those crappy player who quit WOW (or get excl for all raid activity), it make 24 other players happier and keep longuer their subscription
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:28 am

Unless you can wire a shock collar directly to someone's face to deal these electric shocks, what you've described is the stacking debuff that's already in the game. If they didn't pay attention to -- or didn't understand -- the stacking debuff before, what makes you think they'll learn any different just because you changed the name?

I think it'd be far more interesting to monitor Actions-per-Minute, and give a +bonus to loot based on APM, with a ceiling of, say, 30. There are 40 GCDs in one minute. Allowing for lag, empty GCDs (minus a few) and off-the-GCD abilities (plus a few) it doesn't seem otherworldy to hit 30 APM. Give a bonus APM-10 to loot roll, and let the player know what that bonus is.

This penalizes the crap out of AFKers (whom I detest), and very transparently rewards active participation.

It's not a perfect solution -- it doesn't take into account spammable low-damage abilities for example, but it starts getting people into the mindset of "ok I should always be doing something," which isn't a bad first step at the LFR level.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:18 am

Would penalize classes with long cast times and healers.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Paxen » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:32 am

Worldie wrote:Would penalize classes with long cast times and healers.


Normalize long casts to be cast time/1.5 sec APM? Healers are a bigger problem. Maybe they'll all get dps fillers in Warlords, but it will be a little sad to force every healer into atonementweaving.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:37 am

So an observation... over the weekend I started working on getting some alts their capes, and needed sigils.. lots and lots of sigils. So off to LFR I went...

Did 6+ LFRs on Fri night and Sat night.. beautiful runs. Not excessively overgeared, but they ran through with probably 2 wipes the entire night.

Did 4 LFRs Sunday. A cesspool of all that can be wrong with LFR. Clueless tanks who had never seen fights, emo elitist healers, emo elitist tanks, undergeared healers who were alt-tabbed watching football or something.. and a fair number of bots. Biggest problem was healers that didn't react for phases with raid-wide damage (Phase 2 of IronQ for example.. I got to SIX STACKS on Iron Q before the kill). Also had a tank that insisted on tanking the big bug with the pheremones in the middle of the room.. 4 stacks on that one. We had dps running to grab the pheremones, and he would run after us to grab them back...

So.. really depends on when you play.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:52 am

Worldie wrote:Would penalize classes with long cast times and healers.


So lower the cap to 20 apm. :roll:

You can either discuss design philosophy or nitpick numbers. One of these is interesting.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:35 pm

Lower the cap and then non healers would be allowed to slack :P
Also, some dps classes/specs have to spam buttons every GCD, while some others have large downtimes due to resources / cooldowns.
You can't come up with a fixed number. Encounter mechanics would also alter the numbers, as you might or might not be stunned, have to move, die cause a healer didn't heal you, etc.


Really, there's no method we can imagine to "define" if a player is putting effort or not.

The only real method we know to "test" the skill of a player is Proving Grounds atm.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby Io.Draco » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:38 pm

Maybe Blizzard could simply force people to do Proving Grounds gold if they want to do LFR. Not talking of Endless Level but gold is reasonable enough.
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Re: what about LFR?

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:41 pm

Worldie wrote:Lower the cap and then non healers would be allowed to slack :P

The only real method we know to "test" the skill of a player is Proving Grounds atm.


True, but the point is to reward players for being actively engaged; I think this is better than trying to implement some kind of player ELO. A player can Gold and Title in proving grounds, but if they AFK LFR they're just as useless as the rogue gemming int, wearing a loincloth, and wielding a spoon.

Caps can be adjusted per class and normalized. The concept is how do you make LFR suck less, when people can just queue and autofollow/afk and receive the same rewards as someone who's not useless.
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