Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:58 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Fine. Spy all around, but don't claim you are doing it in the name of security when you're spying on economic targets instead like... Petrobras or the IMF and the World Bank.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/s ... -petrobras
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/ ... EQ20131031

It's like going to the strip club and claiming you go there to have intellectual discussions with the girls.


I have no comment regarding allegations of spying.

I don't know of anyone who "claims they are doing it in the name of security" only, though. Spying, like ANY exercise of power, is a tool for advancing a nation's interests. So is diplomacy. So is economic policy. So is public relations. So is military action.

Security is one very powerful interest that all nations have, but it is hardly the only one. There is also a lot of crossover between "economic" interests and "security" interests. A strong economy adds to security, and threats to the economy threaten security. A strong security environment makes the economy stronger, and security threats hurt economic activity.
After all, there is a reason we use military assets to protect shipping lanes from pirates, even though the pirates may pose no threat whatsoever to the our soil or our citizens.

Spying on your own people is unquestionably bad, and I don't think you will find many people who will dispute this. But if you think all spying should be eliminated altogether, you run into the unilateral disarmament problem. It is possible, as evidenced by the mutual-no-espionage treaties signed between the "friendly five" English-speaking countries, but requires both an incredibly high level of trust between the countries, a very well aligned set of parallel interests, and dramatically increased costs for violating that trust.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:15 pm

Essentially, the Europeans have 3 choices:

1) Spend billions to revitalize their anemic domestic intelligence agencies so they are not dependent on America doing all the work and therefore subsidizing their social spending.

2) Reject American intelligence assistance while refusing to spend money on their own domestic agencies, and endure terrorist attacks at home.

3) Tolerate Americans possibly spying on them as well as on terrorists as the price of the service the Americans provide with their taxpayer money.

The first option is unappealing during these economic times when budgets are tight.
The French are probably going for this option though, and using the public outrage to try and level the playing field between US capabilities and their own so they can compete despite having far fewer resources.

The second option is a calculated risk, but one likely to be deemed unacceptable. Successful terrorist attacks anywhere have ripple effects of inspiring further attacks and adding to terrorist organizations' "brand name", which creates home-grown radicals who aspire to be part of the "movement". In short, terrorism is contagious, so it is in NO ONE'S interest globally for one area to be vulnerable, which is a big reason why the US compensated for European weakness in the first place.

The third option could piss off voters, and result in less pro-washington leaders being elected during the next election, but that is probably a safer gamble because voter memories are short. This is probably the option Merkel will take. She is walking a fine balancing act between showing just enough public outrage to appease voters, while maintaining the status quo.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby cdan » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:26 am

Klaudandus wrote:Fine. Spy all around, but don't claim you are doing it in the name of security when you're spying on economic targets instead like... Petrobras or the IMF and the World Bank.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/s ... -petrobras
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/ ... EQ20131031

It's like going to the strip club and claiming you go there to have intellectual discussions with the girls.


I once had to interview a whole range of people as part of a study on violent crime. For one whole section that would be devoted to violence crime with a sexual aspect we spent time talking to a whole range of people, some of whom included strippers at a strip club. I can quite honestly say that I have never been in a strip club other than to have an intellectual discussion with the girls. :)

I also visited two brothels, a jail and a student nurse dorm to talk about the same subject and the scariest place was the dorm...put me off hospitals for life.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:04 am

Tangentially related to politics as it deals with the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare.)

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/insuran ... -obamacare
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:47 am

In all the debate about health insurance costs, why isn't anyone talking about the actual cost of care itself?

Same thing with the AGW debate. Sure there are things we can (and should) do to reduce human generated carbon emissions, but why aren't we looking at ways to affect the orders-of-magnitude larger amount that occurs naturally?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:49 am

Costa Rica has better and cheaper health care. Heck, Cuba is barely below the US.

My mom got her cholecystectomy done in Mexico, for a wee bit more than 3 grand. That included surgery room, surgeon, anesthesiologist, medicines and a 4-day hospital stay.

I spent 6 hrs bucknaked, on a gurney, under an AC vent for passing a kidney stone and my total bill was more than 8 grand...

Fuck the US' healthcare system...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:07 am

and the scandinavian model; You need to go to the hospital? okay, you go to the hospital. You need med sin the hospital, you get emds.
Only when you get out of t he hospital do you need to pay anything - your meds (and there is a subsidy plan for that, so the more you pay obver a year, the more of the cost the state picks up).

Only problem is that dental work isn't covered - so if you have a problem in your jaw, you gotta pay a good amount yourself. (Dental work is subsidised, but not enough to prevent a clear socio-economic problem)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:35 am

Speaking of Fuck the US Health Care System.

My son is 16. He needs a job. He needs a Work Permit.

Part of the Work Permit, is a physical. Most Student Athletes are able to use both. Well, it's time for him to get a new physical for sports. So I called the Dr. They can't get him in for 2 weeks. Yay!

So I call an Urgent Care / Walk in Clinic that does "deals" on Sports Physicals. 20 bucks for the sports physical, and good. BUT. Because this will also be a "Work" Physical, we have to pay $55.

Not for a paperwork fee. But because a Work Permit Physical, is $55.

Wut.
RUSRS?
$35 more?

So we go, and do it, because he needs this done ASAP so he can get into orientation. My son comes out of the room, and is FUMING. He said it was a waste of money. I said why?

Because the $35 price difference in physicals, meant that they walked in the room, checked his vitals, temp, breathing, and a simple Hand strength exercise. No other examination took place. No standard Sports Physical was given. They signed all the papers, and out the door he went.

Since my son paid for the physical (I'm trying to make him learn the value of money, and budgeting, etc...) he was absolutely furious with the quality of care rendered for an extra $35.

Fuck the US Health Care System, and the greedy bastards who perpetuate it INDEED.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:58 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:34 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/chris-burbank-salt-lake-city_n_4170154.html
Woah! A police chief that still uses common sense!?


The fact that this guy is a radical outsider makes me want to cry...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:01 pm

Paxen wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/chris-burbank-salt-lake-city_n_4170154.html
Woah! A police chief that still uses common sense!?


The fact that this guy is a radical outsider makes me want to cry...


Yeah... have you read the police.com forums? That place is scary...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:31 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:20 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/chris-burbank-salt-lake-city_n_4170154.html
Woah! A police chief that still uses common sense!?

Wait, how did this guy become Chief?
Pretty damn impressive.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent", indeed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:30 pm

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-paci ... 22258.html

Can we please do this here in the US?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:54 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/09/texas-anti-lgbt-crusader-won-local-election-by-pretending-to-be-black/
So much fail in Houston.

"Every time a politician talks, he’s out there deceiving voters."

So... that makes it okay?

Of course, on the other hand, this does somewhat prove that racism is alive and well... since apparently people didn't have an issue with his stances, just the color of his skin (but then again, who's to say for sure he'd have lost if he hadn't resorted to deceitful tactics.)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:25 am

Skye1013 wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/09/texas-anti-lgbt-crusader-won-local-election-by-pretending-to-be-black/
So much fail in Houston.

"Every time a politician talks, he’s out there deceiving voters."

So... that makes it okay?

Of course, on the other hand, this does somewhat prove that racism is alive and well... since apparently people didn't have an issue with his stances, just the color of his skin (but then again, who's to say for sure he'd have lost if he hadn't resorted to deceitful tactics.)


His campaign didn't make mention of his stances at all. His campaign was solely based on the use of "endorsed by that guy", who was his brother, but has the same name as a prominent black politician, and flyers that alluded to him being a black man.

He didn't put out anything about his stances.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby cdan » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:44 am

That's the plot of an Eddie Murphy film. Distinguished Gentleman? Except Murphy had the same name as the (white) ex-incumbent who had died.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:04 pm

Remind me to give you a report of the municipal elections yesterday - too tired right now.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:19 pm

Good news at least?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:03 am

Hardly.

Blood bath begins to describe how hurt we were lovally by the national tendencies - we always knew it was a factor, but nobody I've talked to expected that much of a hit.

Nationally we went back by half (in percent), a bit less in members of municipal councils (iirc the mail I got this morning right).
There are 98 municipalities, we were on the list in 96 of them, and suffered a setback in 94. The bright spot is our vice chair(wo)man, who is mayor of a relatively right-of-center municipality, they went up by 12.5 percentage points, to have over a third of the votes.

My own municipality saw a devastation - we lost 15 percentage points, and went from 4 mandates to 1 (needless to say, I did not get it, being number 4 on the list), worse (democratically) is that we lost 2 party representations (and gained one), so now only 5 parties are represented. Our side did win (12 seats to 7), but with the largets party having 10 of those seats, not a whole lot of influence exists - we can only hope we don't return to the pre 2009 conditionsof closedness and decisions being made by decree of the mayer with teh group simply voting aye.
The mayor has lived up too the agreement we had preelection of talking seats and chairmanships of comittees etc with the 2 other parties (people) in the majority block - even though he wouldn't need to by mandate - but this guy does have a reputation (amongst politicians) for wanting to stick to his word.

Also, we suffered a mjor setback to equality and representation in general. Of the 19 seats, only 2 women were elected despite almost all parties having several women on their lists, and highly placed.
Personally I came in 5th from my 4th place starting position, being narrowly beaten by number 3 (9 personal votes behind) - which is in itself a minot success - number 3 was a sitting member and second vice mayor and known, so only getting ebaten by 9 votes there is a success. Number 5 jumper up to end in the number 3 position - but she is apretty young 'girl' with a large network, so I knew that was realistic and didn't expect to beat her in personal votes. If we had only just gotten the 4th seat, she would have taken it, if we had been on 4.5 seats, I would have gotten it (we generally get a lot of party votes, which are given in order of position on the list).

My major political success of the election night was being asked to 'chair' (nothing as official as that sounds like) a "young candidates network" by the 2 young candidates that actually got elected (2 women, 2 people that could be termed young - thats pretty poor represetation) with 2 immediate goals in mind. Gathering the young candidates cross politically so we can do stuff that can increase the participation of the lower tier, but young, candidates and ghopefully increase the youthful representation, and starting a crosspolitical cooperation/network so when we are the ones in power, we already know and trust (political caveat here) eachother, so we don't have to carry the "long knives" on election night, and can get more stuff done for the people of the municipality rather than simply trying to fight a rhetorical battle.
Of all the young candidates this time, only one wasn't present, and the rest agreed to this network/group (which probably would not have happened if I hadn't taken the initiative). I am happy with my personal political results.

On a side note, GF has greenlighted that I seek a district for parlimentary candidacy, we have a round coming up this spring where we select new parliamentary candidates. I don't hold much hope of getting elected (something drastic has to happen, as we currently look to gain 1 seat from this greater district, and currently we have the treasury minister, who is also a former chairman of the party in this greater district) but it will provide valuable political experience and possibly political capital and name recognition for the next municipal elections.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:44 pm

So, any idea what caused the shift?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:45 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/us/po ... l?hp&_r=4&

I'd be more willing to listen to the GOP if their plan included how they would actually fix things, like economy, healthcare, jobs... them attacking Obamacare, again and again, is not gonna miraculously fix everything else in the country...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:51 pm

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/20/its_pau ... son_again/
The takeaway for Ryan, a Catholic, has been explicitly religious. "You cure poverty eye to eye, soul to soul," he said last week at the Heritage forum. "Spiritual redemption: That's what saves people."

Hmm... I heard some fella called Jesus said something different
Luke 18:22 -- When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

The funniest part is that the new Pope is all about helping the poor and bitchslapped the Bishop of Bling in Germany about a month ago.

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:34 pm

Klaudandus wrote:So, any idea what caused the shift?

Yeah, national tendencies combined with bigger voter turnout (+10 percentage points of voter participation), and the technical electoral union.

All the center-left was counted as one big block opposed to the right, which had it similarly. The seats are divided after the d'hondt method, first among the blocks, then the block seats are divided among the sharing parties - the largest party picks up the excess in an technical union - the socialdemocrats (the 10 seat party) got 46.6% of the vote, but 52.6% of the seats, since none of the 4 smaller parties (including us) picked up enough to grab a second seat.

The voter turnout usually helps the mayoral party, as people who do not generally vote decide mostly on "am I satisfied or not", if satisfied its the mayor that gets the credit and if not, its the opposition candidate(s). Here we have a pretty well run municipality, so mayoral help.

National tendencies kicked in much harder than expected though - we have sufferd a massive blow in polls due to joining government (voters have been used to us being the cooperative party that says what they want - pulling the result left when we have ghavd a socialdemocrat for PM - we still do, only now we don't do so publicly, which translates to a hit in the polls (and now at the election, though this is local and not national.

Lastly, the mayor had a reflection that last time they had no ethnic non-danes on the lsit (this time they did), thus losing out on an appeal to the otherwise ethnically inclined (I hope that doesn't sound racist - it isn't meant to be in any way, its just "what word do we use to not be prejudiced - when every word gets hijacked by the ones that want to use it derogatorily"), and just previous to the last election a major reform of school districts had just gone through, so part of our vote may have been punishment towards the socialdemocrats.

I actually buy the mayors reasoning more than the national tendencies, because while the leftist party (even leftier than us) did get in, it was at the expense of the one that was somewhere between us and them, and only that one seat, while our three seats went to the social democrats.

That being said, I've recieved an email abvout the agreement on who gets what, though I'm not sure if it is fully official, so I won't share that now, ut we have come out better than we "should" have based purely on election results - political influence and alliances are a good thing though.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:38 pm

So, question for those who know more about this stuff than I do.

I've been reading about the couple in Ohio who are accused of child abandonment for giving their 9 year old son to CPS workers (people make a big stink about the son being adopted, but that's somewhat irrelevant to my question).

It makes me curious, why is it abandonment to give a 9 year old to CPS, but it's different if it's either Safe Haven laws or giving up for adoption at birth? Aren't the parents technically still abandoning the infant to the system? Why does one act warrant prosecution, but the other doesn't?

This question doesn't apply if the child, regardless of age, is dumped somewhere else that is not a legal organization supposedly protecting children.
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