Warlords of Draenor

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:11 pm

No more reforging = massive reduction in the amount of time spent running sims on the character to work out what's an actual upgrade. If I was still playing I'd be all in favour of that.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:43 pm

Itemization

Getting new items should be exciting. Right now it feels like you have to do a lot of work when you get a new item.
Hit and Expertise don't feel like a bonus, so they are now gone!
Dodge and Parry, gone!
Reforging, gone!
Enchanting is still around, but fewer items can be enchanted. There will be more enchant choices for those items.
The number of items with gem sockets will be gone. Only one gem slot per item. Gems are more powerful. Sockets are a bonus that don't count towards item level budget. No more socket bonuses or meta gems.
The stats on armor will now change based on your spec. Plate drops and it will have whatever stats your class needs, no more Intellect plate! No more PvP Priest Healing set and PvP Priest DPS set, just a Priest set.
Jewelery, cloak, trinkets, and weapons will be more role focused and might keep stats.
Armor will become a good tanking stat again, Spirit will be good for healers.
Tertiary stats are bonus stats that can appear on gear that don't count towards the item level budget. Lifesteal, avoidance, sturdiness, movement speed (stacks with other bonuses), cleave, and more.
Item squish is in! All of the big jumps from old expansions and raid tiers will be flattened.
Your relative power won't change, just the numbers. The speed at which you kill things won't change. You can still solo old content.


I have to say, this is all good. Fundamentally, in this day and age with crowdsourcing and guides on icy-veins and such, optimalization problems with one correct answer just isn't interesting. You cap hit and exp, no ifs or buts, so out they go. Reforging could have been nice if stats actually did anything except make you Better. (As in, if choosing to stack haste or crit made a difference you could notice apart from seeing your dps go up.) Since they don't, drop reforging. Enchanting, look up your BIS enchant, slap it on. All that reforge, gem, enchant every new piece of gear has just gone too far - it's trivial to find the correct answer, unless it's so complicated that you need an addon. It's not an interesting decision as to how you reforge/gem/enchant, so I'm happy it's mostly gone. Hopefully the remaining enchants can be interesting along the lines of the talent system.

As for stats, with Dodge and Parry gone (thanks be) the last remnants of actual spec gear disappeared - except primary stats. And when when the only difference between healer gear and dps/tank gear is "int or str?" that starts to look pretty meaningless too. Might as well go all the way. At the same time, it makes gearing a trivial question of "better ilvl?". Which is good and bad - good in that almost all the existing gearing decisions are nearly trivial, bad in that it makes gear less interesting overall. Will be interesting to see if their idea for keeping jewelry, cloaks, trinkets and weapon spec-specific will be the right balance. As someone who started out as a Bear in BC I approve of tanks grabbing trinkets and weapon with bonus armor!

Interesting news on tertiary stats. It has potential, but can also be just a nuissance. Looking forward to trying it.

Item squish, yes. Yes, yes yes. I wonder if they will go back to below-60 ilvls, that is, we'll start WoD at ilvl 90? Probably too drastic.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:50 pm

The old version of Outland will remain unchanged. The current timeline is already somewhat of a mess, so the team may just move access to the current Outland to the Caverns of Time.


Yes. Easy fix that makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:56 pm

It's good ideas overally.

What I don't like is, without hit/exp, with no reforge, with primary stat automatically changing with spec, with gems and enchants removed from most of the gear... are items becoming to be just all same? :\
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Zalaria » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:07 pm

They said they're squishing stats, but ilvl will be unchanged. Reasoning being players are used to the meaning of current ilvls (or something close to that). I'm not sure why that matters when the damage-done and damage-needed are changing so drastically, but whatever.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Paxen » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:10 pm

Worldie wrote:What I don't like is, without hit/exp, with no reforge, with primary stat automatically changing with spec, with gems and enchants removed from most of the gear... are items becoming to be just all same? :\


Without reforging I guess secondary stats will become even more important. A crit/haste item drops, do you roll on it or do you prefer your mastery/haste/cleave piece?

edit: Primary stats have been just a label for "usable by these specs and classes" for a while now. Not interesting.

Do you know what would be awesome? If Prot paladins got Int as their primary stat again. We got strength so that we could share gear with prot warriors, that doesn't apply anymore.
Last edited by Paxen on Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Teranoid » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:10 pm

I think they realized that they had basically pushed the limits of what they affectionately liked to call the "frankenstein engine" that WoW has ran on and despite wanting to cram all this cool stuff in and let things get to astronomical levels it just couldn't support it all.

Things like making smart heals not so smart, heirlooms/toys/tabards having their own interface like pets, item squishing and whatnot is going to allow them breathing room to do some really great things without basically risking the destruction of the game from a technical standpoint and I think the whole 25 man input lag issue was the breaking point.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Flex » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:30 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Reforgin gone? How the fuck will I get rid of all the dodge and parry?


What dodge and parry? that shit is gone.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:56 pm

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Reforgin gone? How the fuck will I get rid of all the dodge and parry?


What dodge and parry? that shit is gone.


I posted that before they confirmed dodge/parry gone :D
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:43 pm

No meta gems!?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:57 pm

I think what they are trying to do is make gear more random, more like the D3 model. A piece of gear might be Lwarforged" it might have a socket, it might give bonus sppeed or cleave. And with reforging gone, you do nned to think about if that piece with crit is good for you or not.

Hit and expertise are a legacy from the days of weapon skills. Good riddance. If you just need an addon to calculate the optimal level, it's not interesting or good for the game.

On the other hand, haste caps do seperate good players from great players, hopefully those stay.

Hopefully the gems and enchants will be more inteesting.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby halabar » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:01 pm

Also, played the starting zone demo, felt fine with the squish. If you didn't look at the numbers, you would not notice a difference.

A hunter in full 528 gear had 30k health.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Lieris » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:39 pm

Teranoid wrote:Speed
Lifesteal
Avoidance
Cleave
Sturdiness

Wat.


I actually really like this. Lets face it, gearing has become really boring, the numbers have gotten ridiculous and having to gem, enchant, reforge and valor upgrade everything each time is a very expensive and lengthy ritual. Having items with fun new stats and procs is the way to go instead of incremental upgrades each tier. This along with the item squish is the itemisation overhaul the game desperately needed.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:53 am

It does seem like there'd be some interesting, fun tricks you could pull with the new stats.

See "no Annual Pass", read: "Without the auction house we need people to actually pay for the Diablo expansion this time."
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Fenris » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:37 am

Enchanting is still around, but fewer items can be enchanted. There will be more enchant choices for those items.

:roll:
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Amirya » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:12 am

Just caught up, and whoa.

Dodge, parry, and holy shield.

I may actually pick up my paladin as a tank this next expac, instead of a part time healer.

I guess my burning question for 4am is, do I keep going with my shaman as first 100 in WoD, or do I pick up the paladin again?

Hmmmm......
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Zalaria » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:53 am

Amirya wrote:Just caught up, and whoa.

Dodge, parry, and holy shield.

I may actually pick up my paladin as a tank this next expac, instead of a part time healer.

I guess my burning question for 4am is, do I keep going with my shaman as first 100 in WoD, or do I pick up the paladin again?

Hmmmm......

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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:52 am

They say they're going to try to get the expansion out faster this time, and that there won't be any more MoP content because it would delay the expac. So I wouldn't at all be surprised if there's another 10-12 months of Siege of Orgrimmar.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Ruldar » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:22 am

Eh, at least that'll mean plenty of chances at the heirloom weapons off Garrosh.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Era » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:38 am

Guess I should maybe try to get back into raiding before the next expansion, just so I have a shot at some heirlooms... :roll:
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:52 am

Teranoid wrote:
"All future raids on normal/heroic difficulty will be cross realm enabled on release"

Hey that's prett-

"Each difficulty level will have it's own lockout!"


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I'm surprised there's not more chatter about this. Also the inability to change difficulty on the fly. That means no more working on heroic(mythic) progression, then ratcheting down a difficulty to finish the clear for gear.

Which means if you do the first 4 bosses in Mythic, you have to go back and do all 10 in heroic to farm gear. This strikes me as being an absurd increase in raid time. For a 12-hr a week guild this makes my head hurt.

They did make an off-hand comment about "clear wing X times, get key to skip thing," so maybe killing a boss in Mythic will give you the option to skip it on Heroic.

We'll see how it shakes out, but I'd really like to see them explicitly address this.

Also flex *still* doesn't do anything for "casual heroic guilds," since we're still going to have roster and bench issues, except with 20 people it's a marginally larger logistical headache.

They made a big deal about being able to go in with your friends and help them out on another difficulty; I'm hoping this means raids will be more bosses and less trash; sub-10min boss fights with 15 minutes of trash between bosses seems unbalanced. To be fair the SoO trash seems really reasonable, compared to, say, ToT.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Era » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:07 am

fuzzygeek wrote:They made a big deal about being able to go in with your friends and help them out on another difficulty; I'm hoping this means raids will be more bosses and less trash; sub-10min boss fights with 15 minutes of trash between bosses seems unbalanced. To be fair the SoO trash seems really reasonable, compared to, say, ToT.


How did you feel about the Dragon Soul trash (or rather the almost complete lack thereof)?

As a raid leader it was nice to just get on with the boss-business, but I do kind of feel that trash packs have their place in raids.
Not only for the story and "feel" of the raid, but also as a good way to introduce/prepare for certain boss mechanics.

EDIT: Ignoring the Ultraxion trash, because damn. :roll:
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:00 am

It is a balance. No trash isn't very good either -- ToGC was, like, what "everyone" was asking for, but it turned the raid into srs business all the time every time. It's hard to say whether it was just being in a room, or the lack of trash that made that raid feel so soul-suckingly horrible.

Some trash is good -- it's nice to have a bit of downtime, and some of my fondest memories are things that happened while we were shitting around on vent during trash.

Trash that introduces fight mechanics: good. Small packs of challenging trash can also be fun -- bonus points if they become mini-bosses and actually award loot or valor or something other than "I've just sucked X minutes of your life away. Tell me, how do you feel?"

Calling a raid 30 minutes early because "we don't have time to clear the trash and kill the boss" is pretty stupid. 15 minute cut-off much more reasonable.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Era » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:12 am

fuzzygeek wrote:... some of my fondest memories are things that happened while we were shitting around on vent during trash.


That's very true! :lol:

The downtime aspect might be the best point about having some trash, other than the light introduction to mechanics.
At least for more serious raiders, trash and farm bosses is basically where people unwind and mess around.
Where it's ALMOST OKAY for your hunter to misdirect pull onto the healer, and for the Paladin tank to bubble-hearth. :roll:

fuzzygeek wrote:Small packs of challenging trash can also be fun -- bonus points if they become mini-bosses and actually award loot or valor or something


Yeah. Especially in a non-linear raid, because it allows for trash farming - which is actually a nice thing for the highly casual groups. I know my aunt (who runs a super-causal guild) really misses trash farm runs, like we had in BoT (despite it's linear layout) and to some degree Firelands. They were a nice way for sub-normal raid groups to get their hands on a few beneficial item upgrades, and if they can learn some boss mechanics along the way then that's superb!
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Re: Warlords of Draenor

Postby Cema » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:46 am

I really like how they re-use Holy Shield every time they have no idea for a prot paladin talent xD "Let's give em Holy Shield back ... and get rid of it in 6 month ... and give it back in one year ..."

:D
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