6.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Winkle » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:37 am

What's the general consensus on battle healer glyph then?

I ran it this week on Garrosh, and was surprised to see that it was still healing me as well as my raid. I'm guessing he healed me when i was the raid member with least hp?

It accounted for about 20% of my healing done. contributing approximately 10k hps. My thinking is that it's better used to smart heal raid members on low hp than heal me, who has significant amounts of other self healing plus numerous damage reduction abilities.

Edit: Ok, just read Theck's 5.4 post and realized the error of my ways, somehow managed to overlook that whole 30% thing. Oh well, i'll look forward to about 35k hps on myself next time i pull garrosh :)
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:32 am

Without the nerf, it would probably have remained a good option, reducing our self-survivability somewhat, to increase the raid's survivability. However, the nerf is just way too much.

They changed it from mandatory to don't-ever-take.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby ramboschox » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:10 pm

Thels wrote:Without the nerf, it would probably have remained a good option, reducing our self-survivability somewhat, to increase the raid's survivability. However, the nerf is just way too much.

They changed it from mandatory to don't-ever-take.


I wouldn´t be that harsh. Tested it together with my co Paladin Tank on some fights, normal and heroic. It´s always good on boss tactics where you don´t take full dmg all the time (e.g. shamans hc, siegetank).
we are doing 25mans,and have not heared complains from the healing side yet.
It remains situational. But if you don´t tank on the very edge of being healabe it´s worse considering takeing a glyph that turns a spell with up to 80% overheal down to 20%. ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-i ... 16&e=11764 our siege tank kill for example. sure our hps could have been higher, but the main issue were dropping raidmembers in the aoe phase, all raidhealing that could be contributed would help, I even spreaded some EFs in the raid )

edith: anyone else tested it yet?
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Schroom » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:37 am

I haven't felt the need to use it 'til now (working on spoils HM atm)

but I'm thinking, maybe Thok HM could be BH option.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:28 pm

ramboschox wrote:
Thels wrote:Without the nerf, it would probably have remained a good option, reducing our self-survivability somewhat, to increase the raid's survivability. However, the nerf is just way too much.

They changed it from mandatory to don't-ever-take.


I wouldn´t be that harsh. Tested it together with my co Paladin Tank on some fights, normal and heroic. It´s always good on boss tactics where you don´t take full dmg all the time (e.g. shamans hc, siegetank).
we are doing 25mans,and have not heared complains from the healing side yet.
It remains situational. But if you don´t tank on the very edge of being healabe it´s worse considering takeing a glyph that turns a spell with up to 80% overheal down to 20%. ( http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-i ... 16&e=11764 our siege tank kill for example. sure our hps could have been higher, but the main issue were dropping raidmembers in the aoe phase, all raidhealing that could be contributed would help, I even spreaded some EFs in the raid )


I think you're focusing on the wrong metrics here. The heal that's 80% overheal most of the time that saves you from death once in a while still saves you from death once in a while.

The glyph nerfs a fairly powerful heal by 70%. Sure, it might knock down the amount of overheal, but it turns a fairly powerful self-heal into an anemic raid heal that will be fairly insignificant in a sea of much stronger smart heals.

I'm also a little skeptical of your logic here. You're heavily advocating glyphing Battle Healer to help the raid survive a high-damage AoE situation.... yet taking an awful 5-target Holy Prism heal over Light's Hammer, which is better in almost every conceivable raid-healing situation. I don't understand that decision at all.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby ramboschox » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:28 am

theckhd wrote:[...]
I'm also a little skeptical of your logic here. You're heavily advocating glyphing Battle Healer to help the raid survive a high-damage AoE situation.... yet taking an awful 5-target Holy Prism heal over Light's Hammer, which is better in almost every conceivable raid-healing situation. I don't understand that decision at all.


Thanks for the clarification (the part I cut out in []brackets, not a fan of awful long quotes, and too lazy to splitquote).
I never consider using the glyph on try nights I consider dangerous, as were the tries on the juggernaut. All wipes were due to too many lost dps in the aoe phase. No tank deaths. Not even once in a while. Therefor we choosed to give it a try. The healers did not complain. I was a bit more on my toes to trigger cd´s reactively if dropping, as that wasn´t the case, I started to try to time them preemtively again.
To cut it down: I highly recommend using it on fights where you don´t tank all (plus significant raid wide dmg, but thats in a lot of fights) the time AND tank deaths are no issue/you have good tankhealers. But thats a thing one has to figure out for his own raid.


Holy prism was the idea of my co tank: During the aoe phase our raid was kinda scattered (first gathered in one spot to stack oil, then moving on and after the knockback, well scattered), so we couldn´t find a sweet spot for the hammer to be placed. The reason why we tried prism was: to add a tiny bit more raidheal in the aoe phase (it´s targeting is at least smart - lowest health member?).
With correct raid movement hammer wins over prism, hands down.

Does that sound at least a bit reasonable?

P.S:
And were you just a little sceptical or did you not understand it at all or did your opinion change in the very moment you wrote that lines? (just trolling, but you started with eristic rhetoric^^)
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Schroom » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:42 pm

mh I try to understand your situation here.

first on juggernaut (I suppose Hm) you need to DPS in Phase 2 to avoid the enrage? wow that is tough. we never DPSed in that phase, jsut stood in the back and waited it out. healing was no problem at all with healing rain, druid shroom, DK AMZ, and 2 Paladins with devo aura. (also you can bubble in P2 to avoid the knockback FYI and take the mines while the rest of the raid is knocked back without getting damage \o/ )

so that is why WE decided that LH would be pretty wasted on a protpally here (nothing to tank in p2, no smiteheal form Battlehealer (IF I would consider it), no vengeance, sad pally :( )

on P1 everybody is greatly spread out what makes Holy prism first choice here, pretty obvious IMHO. (best possible burst heal support for the raid. nice selfheal after taking a mine)

tanks should be safe as you say, as Hand of Purity is OP in this fight (chaining it even more.)
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:58 am

ramboschox wrote:Does that sound at least a bit reasonable?

More reasonable, anyway. I haven't seen that strategy. On 25H, we stack once for oil and then move and stack again in a different location. We make heavy use of location-based raid cooldowns though, so stacking and piling LH, Barriers, Spirit Totems, etc. is how we survive that phase while continuing to DPS.

That said, on 25H tank damage is pretty severe. We were certainly in danger of dying, because each melee was ~half our health or more:
Expression Editor Link
Code: Select all
[21:33:33.682] Iron Juggernaut hits Theck 370817 (B: 158922)
[21:33:50.576] Iron Juggernaut Flame Vents Theck 558551
[21:34:00.315] Iron Juggernaut Flame Vents Theck 483328

[21:34:22.040] Iron Juggernaut hits Agwyne 404594
[21:34:23.619] Iron Juggernaut hits Agwyne 204291 (O: 209315)
[21:34:30.463] Iron Juggernaut Flame Vents Agwyne 336130


As you can see, even on our kill, we lost a tank (Agwyne) wearing the cloak (so effectively 2 potential deaths w/o cloak). That's why I'm loath to give up SoI during that phase - I'd rather have a full-strength heal to potentially save me than a 30% strength heal that might heal me instead of a DPS.

We also didn't lose many people in the transition once we got our cooldown rotation sorted out. The first two wipes were definitely "couldn't handle aoe phase damage" wipes, but that was due to shoddy cooldown preparation. Once we sorted that out, the transitions were pretty smooth. I'm also not in melee for a good chunk of the transition, since the tanks soak mines, so glyphed BH would be entirely useless for half of the phase. OTOH, I can toss a LH on the raid group while on the run during that phase (and on the melee group during phase 1 - nice since LH is superior healing *and* DPS on the boss than Holy Prism is).

ramboschox wrote:P.S:
And were you just a little sceptical or did you not understand it at all or did your opinion change in the very moment you wrote that lines? (just trolling, but you started with eristic rhetoric^^)


Different things. Skeptical of the logic, because it was inconsistent. LH is generally better for raid healing than HPr is, since both need the players to be clumped in one spot (ground-based for LH, near boss for HPr) and LH is sustained healing over 14s rather than one-shot every 20s. So the logic of "take GoBH for raid healing" seemed strange when simultaneously passing up an even better raid healing option in LH.

Didn't understand the choice of HPr over LH at all because I can't see a situation where HPr is better for that encounter, even after your explanation of how you do the fight.

Schroom wrote:first on juggernaut (I suppose Hm) you need to DPS in Phase 2 to avoid the enrage? wow that is tough. we never DPSed in that phase, jsut stood in the back and waited it out. healing was no problem at all with healing rain, druid shroom, DK AMZ, and 2 Paladins with devo aura. (also you can bubble in P2 to avoid the knockback FYI and take the mines while the rest of the raid is knocked back without getting damage \o/ )

so that is why WE decided that LH would be pretty wasted on a protpally here (nothing to tank in p2, no smiteheal form Battlehealer (IF I would consider it), no vengeance, sad pally :( )

on P1 everybody is greatly spread out what makes Holy prism first choice here, pretty obvious IMHO. (best possible burst heal support for the raid. nice selfheal after taking a mine)

tanks should be safe as you say, as Hand of Purity is OP in this fight (chaining it even more.)


See, I had a totally different experience. We DPSed phase 2 for sure on 25H, though we didn't come very close to enrage on the kill either. Not sure if we would have w/o that phase's DPS or not.

OTOH, LH was still superior to HPr here. HPr is a single-target heal on range, because they're too far away from the boss to receive the smart heal effect if you use it to damage the boss. I never single-target heal anyone in 25-man, so it would be a waste. On the other hand, LH is better boss DPS and better raid healing when dropped on the melee group, and it was virtually required for phase 2 (almost every holy/prot paladin in our raid just takes LH baseline, because we all save/use them for "group up and raid heal" situations).

And in our case, tanks weren't safe at all, so we stuck with Unbreakable Spirit for extra DP coverage. The T16 2-piece HoT isn't too bad in these circumstances either, where an extra HoT tick or two can make a big difference. I didn't even think about Hand of Purity - I guess that would be for the fire DoT? I found having DP every time was really useful, not sure I'd want to give that up for a situational help in HoP.

Then again, it only took us 5 attempts total from first pull to kill, so we didn't really think about it too hard regardless. We just focused on the obvious weak points (raw tank spike damage from melee+flame, raw raid healing throughput during p2) and the boss sort of fell over.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Schroom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:55 am

Mh I guess this fight is REALLY different on 25m compared to 10m.

no one except our paladinhealer is in 30 yard range of the tank (except the second tank before taunting)

so everybody is so far spread out that LH would just do nothing whereas HPr can reach EVERYBODY. (hit the Boss and reach potentially every player in 40 yard radius around the Boss.)

no LH needed in P2 as I said the damage here is negligible when you wait it out.

and Meleehits are pretty laugable in 10m the one thing that hits like truck is the FireDoT. so HoPurity takes care of this.


-----


just checked my logs, Ignite Armor is about 200k dmg every second with 3 stacks, combined with everything else it helps a lot to reduce this with HoPurity.
his melee hits are about the same size. ~200k ish. so niceley managable. (1st time tanking I took HA, second time tanking I kept GoAK and so on.)
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby ramboschox » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:22 am

theckhd wrote:
ramboschox wrote:Does that sound at least a bit reasonable?

More reasonable, anyway. I haven't seen that strategy. On 25H, we stack once for oil and then move and stack again in a different location. We make heavy use of location-based raid cooldowns though, so stacking and piling LH, Barriers, Spirit Totems, etc. is how we survive that phase while continuing to DPS.

That said, on 25H tank damage is pretty severe. We were certainly in danger of dying, because each melee was ~half our health or more [...]


Thats what we want do to, as we execute the tactic better and thus stack closer, I´ll try LH again.
Regarding the danger of tank deaths: If you can cover every breath with a CD (I found Thoks on use effect pretty nice on this fight, plus the bonus health gives some more puffer) tankburst in p1 is not a real issue: Thok on use/DP unglyphet on second, GoAK or AD on third. 5 BoG EF ready on top of it and one breathphase can be covered totally by HA. I´ll have to check what CD I really need on DP, but Hand of Purity sounds appealing.

theckhd wrote:[...] The heal that's 80% overheal most of the time that saves you from death once in a while still saves you from death once in a while.

The glyph nerfs a fairly powerful heal by 70%. Sure, it might knock down the amount of overheal, but it turns a fairly powerful self-heal into an anemic raid heal [...]

Having your last 2 posts re-read, that stays a very convincing argument: Don´t reduce your own potential by 70% to do some elses job a tiny bit better.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:34 am

ramboschox wrote:Having your last 2 posts re-read, that stays a very convincing argument: Don´t reduce your own potential by 70% to do some elses job a tiny bit better.


Yeah, it's the same argument for why the tanking cloak is a better choice than the DPS one during progression. And as always, it's situational - if you're in danger so rarely that the cloak/SoI/whatever has almost no chance of helping, then shifting that excess survivability into better performance in other areas (DPS, raid healing) makes sense.

It's just another incarnation of the standard survivability vs. DPS balance that every tank has to evaluate for themselves based on their particular circumstances. Tanks that end up overgearing the fight from pull #1 (either due to encounter tuning, 10 vs. 25 boss damage amounts, or what have you) will rarely feel the need to pile on extra survivability for progression.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Taeron » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:24 pm

I've seen a lot of top end tankadins using Sacred Shield again (and with that, being able to ignore the 4 piece set bonus). Is that just a boss to boss decision or is Sacred Shield an overall valid option (or even better?). Thing is, I ended up with some heroic (and heroic warforged) non tier items and now I'm staring at the 4 piece set bonus thinking if it's okey to break it and take Sacred Shield (or even break it and keep Eternal Flame).

Thanks for your input!
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:24 pm

None of the simulations I've run suggest that Sacred Shield is competitive this tier. EF uniformly beats out SS in Simcraft, with or without 4T16. That said, if you're not reliable about keeping Eternal Flame up, SS can be a better choice. There could also be fight-specific mechanics that makes it more attractive for certain encounters (I use it for Paragons, for example).
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Newsom » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:26 am

Taeron wrote:I've seen a lot of top end tankadins using Sacred Shield again (and with that, being able to ignore the 4 piece set bonus). Is that just a boss to boss decision or is Sacred Shield an overall valid option (or even better?). Thing is, I ended up with some heroic (and heroic warforged) non tier items and now I'm staring at the 4 piece set bonus thinking if it's okey to break it and take Sacred Shield (or even break it and keep Eternal Flame).

Thanks for your input!


Boss to boss thing. The only fight where you really want Eternal Flame is Malkorok. For the last 3 bosses, I found they hit so damn hard during progress that an absorb was more useful. For the rest, techincally EF is better but it honestly doesn't matter much.

Now during farm I'm just lazy and don't bother speccing EF for the early bosses since the only ones that can kill me are the last 3.

If you're progressing and have access to 4 set, I'd definitely use Ef until Siegecrafter. I would have loved to have it on Malkorok, that fight drove me insane trying to keep high vengeance 5 stack flames on both me and the other tank.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby samsara » Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:39 am

the only boss i used sacred shield this content so far was klaxxi heroic,

it was more a matter of one shots , but on the other hand we play with 2 prot paladins and karoz/rikkal can hit hard at the end of the fight and unlike other tanking classes like monks we only have a short active mitigation window and so the absorb seemed a bit safer as the heal. I don't matter that it looked worse on the meters, it just worked for us as we killed the boss the same evening we both switched to sacred shield. It was really anoying getting to the last 3 mobs with 23-25 people and whiping due to a tankdeath
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