Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:49 am

My point about PG (or whatever alternative) is that you'd force people into playing with people of same level of skill.

That way, you don't have LFR being literally tuned for having someone carrying the raid (dont say it aint, because without 2-3 people breaking 150k+ dps carrying the bads who can't break 50k with 500 ilvl, most LFRs tend to fail or get to as high as 7-8 stacks of tenacity to beat the less-facerollable bosses).
Plus, if someone has a low "skill rank", and gets frustrated of being matched with bad people, he would feel motivated to improve, beat that "proving ground level over nine thousand" and step into the skillful people.

Right now, most of the people that do LFR don't care or don't even bother with improving, because as long as someone will carry them, they won't need to.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:18 am

From Econ21: I find it a bit bizarre that everyone hates on LFR and waxes lyrical about openraid/oqueue when they seem functionally very similar (queuing systems for raids).


Not sure how I missed this, but Open Raid and OQ are functionally different in that the groups are hand picked, not randomly generated like LFR is. Even if the Open Raid or OQ group is queing for LFR, it's still a chosen group of people with a similar mindset of getting through it effortlessly and as quickly as possible.





No, Worldie, I completely agree with you and when I was doing LFR's randomly during ToT it was 2-3 people, at best, doing the best they could while other people would just AFK white swing, or cheat in or just be flat out improperly geared/gemmed/enchanted. I do like that idea of being grouped with people of a similar skill and it might be a nice band aid fix. But I feel like it would have be done as a character level, not account wide.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:32 am

Oh I totally agree it should have to be character wide.

Though, if a person has the skill to play a character at high level, he is usually decent enough to at least not be dead weight on any char, so even account wide would make sense.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Zalaria » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:33 am

The problem with grouping people with similar skill is you're essentially screwing over the bottom X% of the playerbase (X is where the tuning of the raid lands). Players at the skill threshold to defeat the bosses will consistently clear the raid, after a couple wipes. Players above the skill threshold will one-shot the bosses easily. But players below the skill threshold will never clear it. They're stuck with other low-skill players and don't have that handful of good ones to carry them through.

The main reason LFR works (especially early in a patch) is because that handful of good players can make up for the bad ones. If you take away the good players, the bad ones can't clear it and are more likely to leave the game.

Blizzard will never do that.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Ruldar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:50 am

Ehh, I'd rather keep carrying people then have 4 hour lfr queues, because that's what would happen if Blizzard significantly raises the barrier of entry for queueing.

That said, once I get a 528+ weapon for the Pally, I'm not sure I see myself queueing up for LFR again until the next patch/expansion. I'm already to the point of not queueing with the Lock now that he has the eyeball staff from Pride, which kind of means Flex really is killing off LFR, at least for me.

I suppose there's always the Mage, but I'm not sure I care enough to gear him up. The run through ToT LFR with him this weekend was a terrible experience, easily equal to the worst runs the other two characters ever participated in.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:59 am

Zalaria wrote:The main reason LFR works (especially early in a patch) is because that handful of good players can make up for the bad ones. If you take away the good players, the bad ones can't clear it and are more likely to leave the game.

Blizzard will never do that.


Except the fact that Flex raiding has pretty much done that.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby econ21 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:20 am

Fenrìr wrote:Not sure how I missed this, but Open Raid and OQ are functionally different in that the groups are hand picked, not randomly generated like LFR is.


I haven't created a premade with these tools before (I've just joined one) but I wonder how picky the RL is? In my case, the RL certainly did not know me. I doubt she armoried me. She never really led the raid (never spoke much at all, didn't give tactics). It felt just like LFR. Except that the players were all geared, cooperative and competent. I think what's going on is that these tools are at the moment selecting the more knowledgeable (and therefore typically "better") players. My hunch is that once everyone learns about them, the playerbase using them will look very like LFR's playerbase.

I also have a suspicion that Blizzard will incorporate some such tools in the future (I read a hint to that effect).

I guess with a premade the RL does have more real power than with a LFR raid. But otherwise with these tools, they do seem very like the random LFD/LFR tools to me.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:43 am

I admittedly haven't really played 5.4 LFR, but according to all my (many) contacts experiences, the LFR got disastrously horrible.

T14 LFR has very long queue and very subpar people since almost everyone skips it due to welfare epics, ToT LFR is almost as bad as when ToT just got released since "good" players don't run it anymore either, and SoO LFR doesn't really have enough strong players to carry the runs since people prefer to spend their time doing Flex with OQ/OpenRaid/Friends in general rather than frustrate themselves with random bads.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby cdan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:52 am

Because of the limited time I have and my US time zone on EU servers problem I pretty much have to run LFR as there is rarely any Flex raiding going on when I am around, but there is usually always a couple of LFRs on the go. It can suck really badly, but 4 / 5 runs aren't bad. The biggest noises come, in my experience, from primadonnas whenever there is a wipe - self-styled uber raiders who are getting their precious feet dirty walking the same path as LFR-types and who like to tell everyone just how much everybody else stinks.

Overall I find there are more instances of high ilvl ego tantrums than there are "idiots standing in the bad" and if anything it is that arrogant, superior attitude that turns me off playing the game. I can even see it creeping into some of the comments on here.

Some people need to relax a bit more and match their expectations to the level they are playing at.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:05 am

The problem cdan, is that LFR is tuned wrong.

It is tuned with people "moving out of stuff after taking some damage from it", and actually doing more dps than autoattacking.

However, Blizzard doesn't realize that the average Donald is worse than that. There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.

The result is that if there's no "egocentric high level player", most LFRs fail miserably or need to achieve several stacks of determination (hello 8 stacks on lei shen / durumu when I was playing).

If Blizzard intends LFR to cather the intended audience so that the presence of such egocentrical higher level players is not needed, then they need to dumb it further down. Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:34 am

Ruldar wrote:In my experience, it frequently only takes one person to step up and make an LFR run good


While going for my last runestone this was the case. Got in for Dark Shaman and Nazgrim. 2 wipes of Dark Shaman where the tank was very explicit about what needed to be done. Both tanks dropped group after that, a windwalker monk tanked up to Nazgrim to keep the group moving. New tanks came in, one was very forceful but respectful. Two wipes on Nazgrim as it took time to really sink in that "no the tank wasn't kidding when they said killing adds is more important."
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby cdan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:45 am

Worldie wrote:The problem cdan, is that LFR is tuned wrong.

It is tuned with people "moving out of stuff after taking some damage from it", and actually doing more dps than autoattacking.

However, Blizzard doesn't realize that the average Donald is worse than that. There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.

The result is that if there's no "egocentric high level player", most LFRs fail miserably or need to achieve several stacks of determination (hello 8 stacks on lei shen / durumu when I was playing).

If Blizzard intends LFR to cather the intended audience so that the presence of such egocentrical higher level players is not needed, then they need to dumb it further down. Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.


I disagree based on my personal experiences - it may be different for you. The ego maniacs screaming at everyone about how horrible they are after a rare wipe is the most common source of irritation I have in the game (apart from the TI missing forge mystery). The number of times I have been in an LFR where there has been a problem with a lot of bad-standers has been far less than outbreaks of ego-junkies.

Just FYI, I never go into an LFR not knowing the basics of the fights and I always perform in the top 20-25% so it is not me that is the source of frustration for the noob-screamers.

Maybe I've just been around so long that wiping instead of zerging is not a major cause of distress. Zerging raids is still odd for me.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:01 am

Durumu is hilarious whether it's the light beams all being on AFK people or his instant death mechanic, there's never a dull moment on LFR. His spout attack is so narrow and he turns so slowly yet by the end of it there will be 10-15 dead without fail.

For a lot of the player base it doesn't matter what you explain or how many times they fail on the same thing, they simply don't care because they'll get their loot eventually anyway.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Jabari » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:53 am

Worldie wrote: Because people at the moment almost expect there to be someone to carry them, and don't even bother trying to improve.


Lieris wrote:<...> they simply don't care because they'll get their loot eventually anyway.


I think we've found the source of the problem...
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Teranoid » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:55 am

What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:02 pm

I think Jabari nailed the problem and reason for which the playerbase of WoW Pugs / LFR is so terrible right now ^_^
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Ruldar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:08 pm

Flex wrote:
Ruldar wrote:In my experience, it frequently only takes one person to step up and make an LFR run good


While going for my last runestone this was the case. Got in for Dark Shaman and Nazgrim. 2 wipes of Dark Shaman where the tank was very explicit about what needed to be done. Both tanks dropped group after that, a windwalker monk tanked up to Nazgrim to keep the group moving. New tanks came in, one was very forceful but respectful. Two wipes on Nazgrim as it took time to really sink in that "no the tank wasn't kidding when they said killing adds is more important."


I was straight up proud of the last Sha of Pride lfr kill I was in on with the Pally. One wipe was a given after a hunter face pulled, but watching that attempt let me know that almost nobody had a clue about what to do. On the run back I gave thorough instructions in chat on when to get out of what, when to stack together, etc., and we had that bad boy down with only two dead at the end of the very next attempt. I'm pretty sure I was grinning from ear to ear as the raid split up.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Lieris » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:18 pm

Teranoid wrote:What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.


Hence this topic. Blizzard have been feeding this behaviour for an entire expansion and the results are obvious. It's up to them to put mechanisms in place to stop the rot.

Maybe LFR as an idea (and the queueing system for PVE as a whole) is completely unsalvageable and it would be better to remove it altogether. Something like Flex arguably fills the casual raiding niche much better, all that's missing are some in-game tools (similar to Oqueue) to make forming a group and filtering out people a bit easier.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:48 pm

Teranoid wrote:What people being lazy and expecting to be carried?

This has been known from the inception of LFR.


or 40 man raids...
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Nooska » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:41 am

Worldie wrote: There's always several people in every LFR not even passing 50k dps at lvl 90 in ToT/SoO, which I could hit as neo 90 in 450 blues on all my dmg chars.


Well congratulations, but I call BS on the last part of that statement.
I very well remember Elegons dps requirements, and if 50k dps was available to all dps on 450 gear, Elegon would not have been the brick wall it was for many guilds (iirc, 60k dps was enough in 10 man with 3 healers).

Don't get me wrong, you do have a point in regards to people in LFR not outputting to their potential - but guess what, LFR isn' tuned to have people outputting to their potential.
Also, specific gear pieces make a world of difference - on the Flex run we did the first week, I barely got above 70K on most fights, being in ilvl 491 gear; reason? T14 LFR bow (sha touched with gem) and no legendary meta. This combined with a few changes to how BM works so I had to change up some of what I used to do, as well as being a little rusty due to a few montsh hiatus.

So tell me, do I not know how to play as a BM hunter? Or is it more likely that damage output isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be to further your standpoint?
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Winkle » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:53 am

Nooska wrote:So tell me, do I not know how to play as a BM hunter? Or is it more likely that damage output isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be to further your standpoint?


Whether 50k dps at 450 ilvl is achievable or not is neither here nor there, the fact that the average SoO lfr dps can well be at that level when at 500+ilvl you'd be expecting to see numbers nearer the 100k mark if a dps executed their rotation properly is more the issue.

Whether that is addressed via a reduction in the health of lfr bosses or a mechanism to improve play, something more eloegant than the wipe buff is required in my eyes.

NB. why would you 3 heal elegon?
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Sagara » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:24 am

This?

A-fucking-gain?

Look, let's be utterly clear - putting "barriers", "incentives" or whatever hogwash people try to wrap this up in, to force people to step up their game on the *lowest* level of raiding is doomed to failure from square zero.

People don't want to learn in their hobbies. We want to, but we're not every person on the planet, and neither are we the righteous defenders of the "Right Way (TM)". If you try and punish people for not learning, people will just give LFR up.

Good riddance you say? Think again! LFR is one of the two (Flex being the other) reasons we probably still have raids nowadays. A quick glance at WoWprogress puts about 200k players doing Normal or higher. Even with a VERY conservative 6mil players that means 3% of the playerbase. Even if I made a 100% mistake, we're still talking about less than 1 player in 10. In short - without LFR and Flex, Raids are about as used as a class questline would be.

In short, Blizzard *needs* those people much more than they need Heroic raiders, or even Normal raiders. I'd even wager that the current LFR population still trumps Flex by a large margin. This is the simple and ugly thruth that needs to be drilled in many skulls right now: The game *needs* a kindergarden level. People don't learn in LFR not because there's no push to learn, but because if there was a push to learn, they'd desert LFR, and that would probably hurt raiding as a whole in the near future (think FL and DS).
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:16 am

I can hit easily 50k dps on a hc-geared 90 *raidbuffed*. Not rocket science. If you don't believe me I can easily log any of my still-blue-geared 90s and demonstrate ;)

Elegon wasn't a brick wall because of the dps requirement, but due to the inability of most guilds to use classes burst capabilities and multitarget abilities to kill sparks.
My guild got it down within an evening, didn't feel challenging at all.

And Sagara, you got a point. My point however was, if they really want LFR to be "kindergarden", it shouldn't be tuned for needing 2-3 high level players to boost the remaining crowd. Because atm, if such players are missing (whenever they are egocentric idiots or actual positive people) the chance of success on lessfacerollable bosses is nil.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Sagara » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:48 am

Worldie wrote:And Sagara, you got a point. My point however was, if they really want LFR to be "kindergarden", it shouldn't be tuned for needing 2-3 high level players to boost the remaining crowd. Because atm, if such players are missing (whenever they are egocentric idiots or actual positive people) the chance of success on lessfacerollable bosses is nil.


To which I'd say, just have the boss Garalo'wned and neutered like a wild dog.

I'll even add something else: *seriously*, have we got such a short term memory that we can't remember this is precisely what happened on Garalon, Durumu, Lei Shen, Norushen, Dark Shaman and Nazgrim? And don't even get started on the gigantic strategic differences between them. Trust Blizz, if something isn't zergable in a two week's time, they'll wack it so hard its head will spin. They're just waiting a bit right now that the dust settles.
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Re: Socially engineering a better (worse?) player base

Postby Winkle » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:32 am

Sagara wrote:This?

A-fucking-gain?

Look, let's be utterly clear - putting "barriers", "incentives" or whatever hogwash people try to wrap this up in, to force people to step up their game on the *lowest* level of raiding is doomed to failure from square zero.


Perhaps, but Lieris wants something better for/from the playerbase. I don't think that's too much of an ask, although i can see your point.

But lets face it, to even do LFR you have to get to 90, Blizzard has the perfect oppurtunity to educate the playerbase as they level.

I think the lfr metnality of "just make is so dumb you can't fail" strikes some of us as strange simply because we're traditional gamers. Bowsers head wasn't served up on a platter, the Ruby weapon didn't drop dead on sight of cloud.

Playing lfr for me is abit like playing noughts and crosses, i can see why Lieris would like to see it improved.
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