Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:35 pm

In a place like New Zealand, there is no President - we have a Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is the head dude of the majority group in Parliament. That group can be a single party, or a coalition of multiple parties. Thus small parties not only can survive, but can be kingmakers with lots of power. Don't want to pass our bill? Fine, we'll go side with the other people and break your majority.

But in the US, the President is voted independently of Congress, and I don't believe even needs a majority - a state can be split 34/33/33 and all electoral college votes would go to the 34% group.

So whereas in New Zealand you can support the National party by voting for one of its allies, such as the ACT party, in the US if you don't vote for a majority party you're pissing away your vote.

It's not a flaw of the voters, but of the system.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Koatanga wrote:In a place like New Zealand, there is no President - we have a Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is the head dude of the majority group in Parliament. That group can be a single party, or a coalition of multiple parties. Thus small parties not only can survive, but can be kingmakers with lots of power. Don't want to pass our bill? Fine, we'll go side with the other people and break your majority.

But in the US, the President is voted independently of Congress, and I don't believe even needs a majority - a state can be split 34/33/33 and all electoral college votes would go to the 34% group.

So whereas in New Zealand you can support the National party by voting for one of its allies, such as the ACT party, in the US if you don't vote for a majority party you're pissing away your vote.

It's not a flaw of the voters, but of the system.


Oh, I agree it's a problem with the system -- and should be changed -- but my pragmatism lies in that I try to maximize my return based on the system that is in place. Even if my maximizing relies on just trying to cockblock whoever I consider the worst candidate.

If the system were to change to be friendlier to third parties, I'd vote accordingly.

In the meantime, you shouldn't blame me for voting with the intention of being a political cockblocker.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:33 pm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ators.html

A couple of comments I saw on this article.
A lot of people don't seem to realize how unprecedented this Republican stunt really is. We've had government shutdowns over policy before, but it was almost always over a REAL negotiation where both sides had something to offer. In this case, the Republicans have demanded the overturning of the Democrats' most signature legislation from the past decade, and return for this they've offered F*CKING NOTHING. It's insane.

THAT'S why the Dems finally grew a spine, and THAT'S why this has been compared to extortion and hostage taking, because that's exactly what this f*cking is. I've already decided I'm never voting for any Republican again for the rest of my life, but I suspect this has convinced more than a few other people to do the same. It's unforgivable. YOU F*CKING LOST.


and

This was the perfectly WORST fight for the GOP to choose.

They gave Democrats no room to retreat, the Democrats lose nothing by fighting, and the GOP offered Democrats nothing in return for a surrender (or partial surrender)

"Art of War" was a business cliche in the 1980's, but Sun Tzu nailed it when he described how you want to set the environment of a fight before you start the fight. The GOP violated those principles in almost every way.



In the mean time, I'm enjoying seeing people that normally stay out of politics in my social media circle put the blame squarely on the GOP, and also seeing how the GOP fractures from within.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:36 pm

there are certainly faults in the system, but voters aren't faultless.

I'm rather hoping this destroys the Republican party and the Libertarian party steps up. Reps/Dems have gone so far to either side I'm beginning to think the only path back to the middle is the destruction of one of the two major parties.

Actually, I think I'm going to donate to the Libertarian party when I get home. Now is the time for them to move, they'll need whatever help anyone can give.

I also think that if a third party moves into one of the top two, we might also finally see some real voter/electoral reforms. So basically all kinds of win if we can destroy one of the two major parties, and the Republicans have set themselves up to be the dodo.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:11 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:37 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Melathys wrote:and what would that point be?


I would rather have had Obama as president than the Republican nominee...


And my point is that is the very reason why I voted for Obama, even though it didn't matter because Texas is still pretty red when it comes to presidential elections -- but in a contested state, going for the third party could have made Obama lose that state, and possibly the election, thus giving the Republican nominee the presidency.

The US Presidential elections are a bad place to put that kind of thing into practice, obviously. If you're trying to break out of the two-party system the best bet is on the more local level with state representatives.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:31 am

I didn't vote for Obama or Romney this last election. To me there was no lesser evil. Well, I guess Obama was the lesser evil, but not buy such a wide margin that I wanted to vote for him. So I was hoping to at least help Gary Johnson get the 5% the Libertarian party would need to get federal funding.

My dad has been a staunch Republican his whole life. But he's had this to say about recent events.

These are the new imperial class that thinks they own everything we pay for. To them we are just the peasant class to be brutalized at will. We can start by not electing anyone from either party at the local level, only independents. The long term effects will help your generation get this country back on course.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Brekkie » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:42 pm

Melathys wrote:I didn't vote for Obama or Romney this last election. To me there was no lesser evil. Well, I guess Obama was the lesser evil, but not buy such a wide margin that I wanted to vote for him. So I was hoping to at least help Gary Johnson get the 5% the Libertarian party would need to get federal funding.

My dad has been a staunch Republican his whole life. But he's had this to say about recent events.

These are the new imperial class that thinks they own everything we pay for. To them we are just the peasant class to be brutalized at will. We can start by not electing anyone from either party at the local level, only independents. The long term effects will help your generation get this country back on course.


That's some remarkably leftist rhetoric from a staunch republican.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:21 pm

Brekkie wrote:That's some remarkably leftist rhetoric from a staunch republican.


Yeah. You can't have personal freedom if you live in a feudal society, though. At some point you realize that the freedom to make other people your serfs isn't necessarily a good thing.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:37 pm

Interesting take.

It looks to me like mostly a generic anti-oligarchy/anti-imperialism statement, which is pretty standard on the left and the right. I suppose it matters who the pronoun "these" is referring too.

That said, the left and right in the US often agree on the problems, but not the solutions. And given that his solution does not throw money at the problem, increase the size of gov't, increase the scope of gov't, or call for a gov't based solution at all. That it puts the power in the hands of the people at a local level, it doesn't seem to qualify as what passes for leftist in the US these days.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:54 pm

Fridmarr wrote: That it puts the power in the hands of the people at a local level, it doesn't seem to qualify as what passes for leftist in the US these days.


Interesting take (just to put the opposoite spin on it. Thats statement could be more or less be taken from the official party line of at least 2 socialist (well 1 socialist and one communist-wannabe) parties in Denmark.

Just goes to show that left/right isn't very precise anymore.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:18 am

Indeed - putting power in the hands of the people is pretty much the purpose of socialism.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:12 am

Yeah, Nooska has informed me that in his country I'd be a socialist...

And as I said, it's a generic statement, you could also pull it out of the US Libertarian party platform.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:49 am

Brekkie wrote:
That's some remarkably leftist rhetoric from a staunch republican.


My dad, as I do, believes in what Republicans are supposed to stand for, limited government and personal liberties. Republicans do not represent that anymore. I'd say they are now the exact opposite of that, trying to pass more government to take away more liberties.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:16 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:30 am



I saw that before. The way Republicans are going, they want us to be as much a Christian state as a Muslim state. I was talking to a Mormon friend of mine who was out pushing for Prop 8. He said he doesn't have a problem with gays, he just doesn't think they should marry. I then asked him.. "Are christians the only religious group to marry? Is America made up of only Christians? Do even all Christians hold this view?." He goes "No No No, its just my opinion." "Why do you want your opinion to become the law? Sounds like some Sharia law Muslim state crap to me, except you want us to be a Leviticus law Christian state." He didn't have much to say about that, but continued doing what he was doing.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:53 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/07/new-air-force-cargo-planes-fly-straight-into-mothballs/?intcmp=latestnews

*facedesk*



Speaking with my Sister In Law's Fiance, who is a mechanic at the local ANG base, (the one mentioned in Ohio in the article), they HATE the C27J, and want their damn C130's back.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Arnock » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:45 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/07/new-air-force-cargo-planes-fly-straight-into-mothballs/?intcmp=latestnews

*facedesk*



It sounds stupid, but I can kind of see their logic.

The planes are already bought and paid for, and cancelling an almost complete program would probably cause more headache than it's worth.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:54 pm

Arnock wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/07/new-air-force-cargo-planes-fly-straight-into-mothballs/?intcmp=latestnews

*facedesk*



It sounds stupid, but I can kind of see their logic.

The planes are already bought and paid for, and cancelling an almost complete program would probably cause more headache than it's worth.


The problem is that they ordered far many more than needed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:51 am

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... -pay-bill/

Looks like the GOP is doing its darnest not to win the next elections.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:19 am

I was thinking about donating to the Libertarian party. However, a guy on another forum had this to say about it. He has run under the Libertarian ticket.

"tossing them a few bucks" will do nothing. Nothing at all. The LP brings in a ton of money and doesn't spend any of it on candidates. I ran twice as a member of the LP and never received a dime of support from the party for my campaign, nor did any of the other candidates up and down the ticket that I spoke with. I didn't even get a single donation from an established member of the party during either of my runs.

You know what your money gets spent on? Paying the executive directors and buying worlds smallest political quiz door hangers. Seriously. The ED of Texas had a salary of like $70k when I ran in 06 and 08, all his staff were paid $35-$45k. As far as I could tell, aside from going around the state talking to established LP meeting groups, he didn't do a damn thing. His staff at least handled filing candidate applications and such, but he did pretty much nothing.

The LP is a money pit. Donating to it is literally throwing your money away because they don't do anything truly productive to grow the party with it.

The only candidate the LP supports at all financially is their presidential candidate, which is backwards and counter to the supposed "grass roots" nature of the party. Even if by some miracle they got a libertarian elected president, they'd be a man on an island because libertarians only hold a handful of offices in the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY. No senate or house seats, no governorships, maybe a couple of dozen (if that) state house/senate seats across the country.

Growing the party requires getting people into lower offices and showing the public they can run things better than the established parties, not going for the top job in hopes of getting 1-2% of the vote for "exposure." the LP doesn't get this, and until they do they're a fucking waste of time.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:26 am

So... we vote for Kodos then?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:39 pm

Matt Steinglass' analysis on the GOP Shutdown
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... shutdown-0

The problem Republicans are having right now is an outgrowth of a longer-term issue they've had ever since the 2008 elections: the GOP does not really have much of a policy agenda. For the past five years, the party has been defined almost entirely by everything it is against. Mostly, it is against Barack Obama and whatever he is for. And here, Mr Obama's tendency to play the reasonable moderate sometimes becomes a problem. It's a deep-seated element of Mr Obama's character to step back from disputes, to take things to a meta level, to describe the arguments on both sides and then present his own solution as a compromise, or simply to plead for reasoned debate and a sense of common purpose. There are times when this approach does no one any good.

When Mr Obama stops speaking as a partisan advocate of ambitious liberal goals, adopts his mature school-principal voice, and demands simply that political players adhere to reasonable norms of democratic governance, Republicans are left with nothing to oppose except the reasonable norms of democratic governance. At the moment, Republicans need to be reminded that Democrats do not want the government to reopen and the interest on our debt to be paid. They want the government to reopen, double its infrastructure spending and guarantee pre-school from age three to poor Americans; they want to pay the interest on our debt, then borrow more to run larger deficits right now and for the next couple of years, and lock in higher taxes five to ten years down the road to handle the long-term deficit problem. A fight between Democrats and Republicans over whether or not those are good ideas is a fight America can survive and even thrive with. A fight over whether or not to default on our debt isn't.


Also, this

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/ ... -hard?lite
"They may try to throw the kitchen sink at the debt limit, but I don't think our conference will be amenable for settling for a collection of things after we've fought so hard," says Representative Scott Garrett (R., N.J.).


Oct 2008: "You'll never get elected and pass healthcare."
Nov 2008: "We'll never let you pass healthcare."
Jan 2009: "We are going to shout you down every time you try to pass healthcare."
July 2009: "We will fight to the death every attempt you make to pass healthcare."
Dec 2009: "We will destroy you if you even consider passing healthcare."
March 2010: "We can't believe you just passed healthcare."
April 2010: "We are going to overturn healthcare."
Sept 2010: "We are going to repeal healthcare."
Jan 2011: "We are going to destroy healthcare."
Feb 2012: "We are going to elect a candidate who will immediately revoke healthcare."
June 2012: "We will go to the Supreme Court, and they will overturn healthcare."
Aug 2012: "The American people will never re-elect you, because they don't want healthcare."
Oct 2012: "We can't wait to win the election and explode healthcare."
Nov 2012: "We can't believe you just got re-elected and that we can't repeal healthcare."
Feb 2013: "We're still going to vote to obliterate healthcare."
June 2013: "We can't believe the Supreme Court just upheld healthcare."
July 2013: "We're going to vote like 35 more times to erase healthcare."
Sept 2013: "We are going to leverage a government shutdown into defunding, destroying, obliterating, overturning, repealing, dismantling, erasing and ripping apart healthcare."
Oct 2013: "WHY AREN'T YOU NEGOTIATING???"
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:17 pm

I think Michelle Obama should run for 2016 presidency on the Democrat ticket. Or Oprah. Or any sufficiently famous black woman.

Why? Because of two things, really:

1) she's noticeably "blacker" than Barack Obama, which would stick in the right's craw
and
2) she's a woman, which would DEFINITELY stick in the right's craw.

And they need a huge shock to get out of the rut they're in of being misogynistic, racist, selfish prigs. A black woman as the "most powerful man in the free world" would deliver that huge shock to their system. Hell, we might even see professional congresscritters drop dead of apoplexy when the new president is sworn in.

However, I don't think the GOP is going to survive this shutdown with all of their seats intact. We're coming up on midterm elections next year, aren't we? And the only way that the republican majority in the house even has a snowball's chance in hell of surviving is if we don't hit the default. Which is in roughly about 9 days, I think? I heard something about October 17th somewhere.

Anyway, here's another out-of-touch-with-reality-congresscritter making my state look bad: http://news.yahoo.com/arizona-de-fuhrer ... 42788.html
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