Glyph of Hand of Sacrifice

[Razeoflight]

Current version of the Glyph of Hand of Sacrifice

seeing as it no longer redirects damage with the glyph it made sense to me that we would be able to put it on ourselves.

the tooltip with it being glyphed

Places a Hand on a Party or raid member, reducing damage taken by 30% last 12 sec. Players may only have one Hand on them per Paladin at any one time.

reading all that u would think u would be able to sac yourself but as it turns out for me atleast i cant.
Now i wonder if im just getting ahead of things hoping it should work and bliz just dident fix it yet.
Or maybe its working as intended and there is just an error in the tooltip.
Cause atm its pretty much the same tooltip then our other hands that we are able to use on ourselves.

all in all i donno time will tell i guess but in the mean time

maybe any of u guys know more or like to comment on this new glyph and how it could/should work or turn out for us

[Thels]

I didn't expect us to be able to use it on ourselves...

That said, I'm likely going to pick up this Glyph regardless. A 30% DR for 12 seconds to hand out is pretty awesome.

[Kelerei]

My initial feel was that the other two specs will get more use out of it than us -- the damage redirected doesn't usually make a significant dent to us, so outside of niche cases (when you'd pop it on someone about to take a massive amount of damage, along the lines of the tentacle Impale back on Madness), there's probably something more worthwhile to stick in that glyph slot.

However, if it turns out that we'll be able to use it on ourselves with the glyph, that changes things. Problem is that I don't see this happening (i.e. it's just a broken tooltip), because we already have Hand of Purity which has a similar effect.

[Thels]

Yeah, I've been milling over this glyph more and more, and I've gotten to the same conclusion as Kelerei:

1 tank fight, I'm tanking: Can't use it on myself, useless.
1 tank fight, I'm not tanking: I'm probably in my Ret spec then, so doesn't matter what I glyph in prot.
2 tank fight, taunt switch: The 30% damage redirected to me probably won't kill me.
2 tank fight, large area: The other tank is probably out of my range for most of the fight for me to put it on him.

Overall, it doesn't feel like it would be worth it. Going through the ToT bosses:

Jin-Rokh: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Horridon: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Council: Admittedly, it could help here.
Tortos: Admittedly, it could help here.
Megaera: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Ji-Kun: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. If a guardian needs to be tanked, then the other tank is out of range.
Durumu: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Primordius: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. Perhaps on Heroic...
Iron Qon: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Twins: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Lei Shen: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.

So it's only Council and Tortos where it would see any real use.

For Ret however, it'll be a core Glyph when 5.4 hits. Partially because Ret doesn't really have any decent glyphs.

[daishan]

I tend to agree with your asemsment of the ToT bosses.

Would be very nice for council as I often need to blow GotAK to stop the combination of frigid assault and HoSac on a frostbite target from killing me.
I solo Tortos on 10 man so wouldn't help me there
Primo isn't that hard on heroic but that glyph could of been useful during prog.

I also think it would be useful for Lei Shen heroic especially last phase where the DoT and constant aoe makes it very risky to use HoSac on the active tank.

Though as you say much more of a Ret or maybe Holy glyph (unsure what other glyphs holy need).

[Thels]

I also run Hand of Sacrifice on default on Ret, so it would be twice the fun

[Schroom]

Jin-Rokh: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Horridon: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Council: Admittedly, it could help here.
Tortos: Admittedly, it could help here.
Megaera: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Ji-Kun: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. If a guardian needs to be tanked, then the other tank is out of range.
Durumu: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Primordius: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. Perhaps on Heroic...
Iron Qon: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Twins: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Lei Shen: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.

Dark Animus is sad you forgot about him. He sits in the corner and cries.

[Sagara]

Well, it's fairly simple in the end: is there a powerful spike of damage that could be controlled via HoS, but that I'm reluctant to use due to myself suffering a similar damage spike?

Doesn't happen -that- often.

[Thels]

Dark Animus is sad you forgot about him. He sits in the corner and cries.

I have no idea how I managed to skip him... I guess it would be useful there too.

[Darielle]

Yeah, I've been milling over this glyph more and more, and I've gotten to the same conclusion as Kelerei:

1 tank fight, I'm tanking: Can't use it on myself, useless.
1 tank fight, I'm not tanking: I'm probably in my Ret spec then, so doesn't matter what I glyph in prot.
2 tank fight, taunt switch: The 30% damage redirected to me probably won't kill me.
2 tank fight, large area: The other tank is probably out of my range for most of the fight for me to put it on him.

Overall, it doesn't feel like it would be worth it. Going through the ToT bosses:

Jin-Rokh: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Horridon: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Council: Admittedly, it could help here.
Tortos: Admittedly, it could help here.
Megaera: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Ji-Kun: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. If a guardian needs to be tanked, then the other tank is out of range.
Durumu: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Primordius: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. Perhaps on Heroic...
Iron Qon: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Twins: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Lei Shen: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.

So it's only Council and Tortos where it would see any real use.

For Ret however, it'll be a core Glyph when 5.4 hits. Partially because Ret doesn't really have any decent glyphs.

I think that's looking a bit too narrowly at "other tank".
Jin'rokh means that you can use it on "that guy" who keeps finding ways to just kill himself during Lightning Storm. Council allows for use on Frostbite as well, or a sketchy Discharge. On Megaera, you may not necessarily be able to use it on the other tank, but it could be invaluable on the guy who just gets Torrent right before Rampage is about to start. Durumu adds extra cheese for Parasites, not that they're particularly hard, but it might be useful anyway. Primordius on Pathogen. For Lei Shen, on things like transition Shocks, or people with Diffusion in the final part, or people with Helm. On Ra-den, on the guy who is out when the reset is going to happen. etc.

[Thels]

I think that also partially relates to the skill of the tank. Some tanks will stick to their own task at hand, while other tanks can handle their own task just fine while spending a little focus on the rest of the raid.

Though admittedly, you are right. There are probably a couple of nice moments where we could use this on other people. And perhaps, now that Battle Healer has been nerfed to the ground, we might have a free slot.

[Setokaiba]

Yeah, I've been milling over this glyph more and more, and I've gotten to the same conclusion as Kelerei:

1 tank fight, I'm tanking: Can't use it on myself, useless.
1 tank fight, I'm not tanking: I'm probably in my Ret spec then, so doesn't matter what I glyph in prot.
2 tank fight, taunt switch: The 30% damage redirected to me probably won't kill me.
2 tank fight, large area: The other tank is probably out of my range for most of the fight for me to put it on him.

Overall, it doesn't feel like it would be worth it. Going through the ToT bosses:

Jin-Rokh: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Horridon: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Council: Admittedly, it could help here.
Tortos: Admittedly, it could help here.
Megaera: Other tank is out of range most of the time.
Ji-Kun: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. If a guardian needs to be tanked, then the other tank is out of range.
Durumu: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Primordius: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed. Perhaps on Heroic...
Iron Qon: One tank fight. (and with 2 tanks, it could simply be used unglyphed)
Twins: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.
Lei Shen: Tankswitch, I could just use it on the other tank unglyphed.

So it's only Council and Tortos where it would see any real use.

For Ret however, it'll be a core Glyph when 5.4 hits. Partially because Ret doesn't really have any decent glyphs.

Except that you all missed very important part of the glyph - it no longer has HP cap.
This is glyph is by far one of the most useful in 5.4.
SoO has plenty of dot mechanics which makes this 12sec 30% DR insanely OP, especially with Clemency.

[jere]

Except that you all missed very important part of the glyph - it no longer has HP cap.
This is glyph is by far one of the most useful in 5.4.
SoO has plenty of dot mechanics which makes this 12sec 30% DR insanely OP, especially with Clemency.

I am only up to the 4th boss at the moment in SoO (non heroic), but I haven't run into any situations where I reach the HP cap of HoSac. Do later bosses do over 200k damage per second for 12 seconds? Again, I haven't been that far, so I am asking to see if I should consider reglyphing? For reference, in order to reach the HP cap in my current gear, the boss would need to do 2.5 million damage over 12 seconds.

[Lid]

I don't expect that the damage cap is realistic for a lot of encounters. A few heroic bosses in, and I haven't yet seen Hand of Sacrifice break early (even then, I wonder how many seconds of extra uptime would be worth giving up a glyph slot). That being said, I could see tank damage approaching those breakpoint levels on a frenzied Siegecrafter - but by then my other tank is out of range for Hand of Sacrifice anyway, and I can only get him towards the tail end of the enrage. I'd have suboptimal uptime on it anyway.

[Setokaiba]

Except that you all missed very important part of the glyph - it no longer has HP cap.
This is glyph is by far one of the most useful in 5.4.
SoO has plenty of dot mechanics which makes this 12sec 30% DR insanely OP, especially with Clemency.

I am only up to the 4th boss at the moment in SoO (non heroic), but I haven't run into any situations where I reach the HP cap of HoSac. Do later bosses do over 200k damage per second for 12 seconds? Again, I haven't been that far, so I am asking to see if I should consider reglyphing? For reference, in order to reach the HP cap in my current gear, the boss would need to do 2.5 million damage over 12 seconds.

2.5 mmillion? teh health cap is paladins HP, which is around 900k?
Yeah I know to break that cap early is quite hard, but tanks do get smashed in some encounters.

[Minyatur]

30% of 2.500.000 = 750.000
So in order to reach the cap (in this case 750k HP), the boss have to do 2,5 mio dmg.

[jere]

2.5 mmillion? teh health cap is paladins HP, which is around 900k?
Yeah I know to break that cap early is quite hard, but tanks do get smashed in some encounters.

The damage cap is compared to the damage that is actually transfered via HoSac (30% of boss damage) and not the damage the boss does (100% of boss damage).

This was stated above by Minyatur, but if you need math to support:
Paladin with 750k HP
where d = damage done by boss:

0.3*d >= 750000
d >= 750000/0.3
d >= 2,500,000

for Paladins with 900 HP:
d >= 900000/0.3
d >= 3,000,000

The dtps conversion factor would be:

dtps >= (h/0.3)/12secs
dtps >= (1/3.6)*h
dtps >= 27.78% of caster's health

If that condition is met for 12 seconds, then hand of sacrifice would cap.

I'm not far enough into content to know any bosses that do that much damage (at least consistantly for a period of 12 seconds), so I was curious if it was. I've seen some hard hits, but nothing that lasted long enough to limit HoSac yet. Do later bosses (Garrosh for example) put that much dtps out?

[daishan]

I've not got to it myself yet, but if you're letting the other tank solo Malkorok's Blood Rages you might get to the cap.