[5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:04 pm

That was kind of expected... So output is reduced by 25%. That probably still makes it better than SS, though it's a lot closer now.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Worldie » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:28 pm

You have to admit 300k+ hits from a Hot felt a bit... broken :P

(plus added a bit of weirdness to healers to see tank health spike up so much without incoming heals)
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Sagara » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:50 pm

Thels wrote:That was kind of expected... So output is reduced by 25%. That probably still makes it better than SS, though it's a lot closer now.


Meh, not sure it's still that close. We're still seeing what? Double the SS numbers?
If I were paranoid I'd say they nerfed us in a sneaky one-two manoeuver, but I'm more thinking they never expected those EF numbers to happen. *facepalm* Seriously...
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Worldie » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:29 pm

Actually I think they thought Prot would still stick to SS despite its nerf, without noticing the amount of theorycraft that stated that EF was a lot better even without set bonus, so didn't even bother to check the numbers.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Sagara » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:34 pm

Is that the moment when you throw that saying about assumptions?
Last edited by Sagara on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:51 pm

using Slootbags spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9R9nFi ... 5ITms/edit EF is still clearly in the lead. even tho, as mentioned it got closer.

(just download it and fill in your mastery level. change "EF Self Cast Bonus" from 2 to 1.5 )
Last edited by Schroom on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:11 am

Sagara wrote:Is that the moment went you throw that saying about assumptions?


While I get what you meant, your sentence makes no sense grammarwise xD
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Sagara » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:12 am

Worldie wrote:
Sagara wrote:Is that the moment *when you throw that saying about assumptions?


While I get what you meant, your sentence makes no sense grammarwise xD


When, went! Same difference! Details!
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby daishan » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:39 am

Bah... and I was just starting to be happy with how I was using EF.

Think I'll probably go back to SS on most bosses until I have 4p, the difference in healing while at 10hc veng levels just doesn't look to be enough to justify missing out on SotR casts.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Crumple » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:09 am

Hi all,

So, if you're not seeing the EF numbers there for 10Hc, what are the numbers like for 10/25 normal with 4x T15?

I'm guessing not fantastic, (and no wonder I'm feeling slightly more squishy)

I'd check myself, if I had the time to get my head around simcraft.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:58 am

Schroom wrote:using Slootbags spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9R9nFi ... 5ITms/edit EF is still clearly in the lead. even tho, as mentioned it got closer.

(just download it and fill in your mastery level. change "EF Self Cast Bonus" from 2 to 1.5 )


Keep in mind that while EF is a lot stronger on total healing(/absorb) output, it is only useful during the tick, while SS' absorb effect will apply to the next blow. Once EF does less healing than SS absorbs per tick, it doesn't really matter that EF still puts out more total healing, it won't help as much as SS. EF might tick twice as often, but that advantage is mostly negated by EF ticks only being applicable in between attacks, whereas SS is also useful before an attack.

Thus, for a string of 3 attacks, we can rely on 1 SS tick and 1 EF tick.



I'm actually a little confused how BoG stacks are included in Slootbag's sheet. Changing the selfcast multiplied from 2 to 1.5 is easy enough, but what about the bonus for BoG. It lists a 2.5 multiplier, but each stack increases output by 10%, right? So shouldn't it have been 1.5 (or at most 1,61051 if it was multiplicative, which I doubt is the case).



EDIT: I checked the video again, and totally forgot to include Mastery. Then looked back at the sheet, and noticed that mastery was included in the formula. *headdesks*

Testing it with 2.2 (20% Mastery + 4 BoG) and EF still comes ahead per tick.

Testing it with 1.9 (20% Mastery + 3 BoG) and EF starts to lose above 100k vengeance.

Of course, it's quite possible for players to have more than 20% Mastery.

At 25% Mastery (and 3 BoG stacks), EF and SS tick about evenly hard at 200k vengeance, with SS winning at higher vengeance levels.

At 30% Mastery (and 3 BoG stacks), EF still wins all the way up to 400k vengeance (though SS will take over a little higher than that).

These might sound like high numbers, though not too high if you assume BoM present, which we should, since we provide that buff ourselves, and so many classes can provide stats.

Either way, those numbers all assume 3 BoG stacks. At 4 or 5 BoG stacks, EF is a clear winner. And even at 3 BoG stacks, it counts per EF tick, while EF ticks twice as often as SS.



TIP: It might be useful to add a "BoG stacks" field to the sheet, just like there's a "Mastery" field.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:35 am

I never apply EF with less than 5 stacks, unless it is an emergency heal.

you should always aim to use it with 5 stacks anyway, if possible. :)

Thels wrote:Thus, for a string of 3 attacks, we can rely on 1 SS tick and 1 EF tick.


remember that EF ticks twice as often as SS does.

with the actual haste values. EF ticks < 1.5 sec which is the swingtimer for most Bosses.

so 3 attacks is 3 EF ticks. where as it is only 2 SS ticks:


hit - EF - hit - EF - hit


SS - hit - hit - SS - hit
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Thels » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:50 am

EF has a base tick time of 3 seconds. For the tick time to become 1.5 second, you need 100% Haste. I think you're overestimating that.

Even if EF was at 1.5 seconds, and SS at 3 seconds, you'd have for chains of 2 attacks:

hit - EF - hit

SS - hit - hit OR hit - SS - hit

EF before or after a string of attacks has no effect. SS before a string of attack has.

It's more likely going to be like:

hit - EF - hit - hit OR hit - hit - EF - hit

SS - hit - hit - hit OR hit - SS - hit - hit OR hit - hit - SS - hit



SS is an absorb, which is stronger than a heal. Since EF ticks twice as often, and ticks at least as hard, the advantage from the absorb is negated almost completely. Once EF ticks for less than SS, EF is losing it's advantage, especially if you don't have the T16 bonus, and EF comes with a big opportunity cost.

However, at at least 3 BoG the ticks are about equal, depending on your mastery. At 4 or 5 BoG, EF remains a clear winner.



I'm not convinced, though, that always waiting for 5 BoG is the smart way to play it. That can add pretty big gaps where you are doing without EF.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Sagara » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:08 am

Just checked yesterday's log for my guild, EF is ticking at around 2sec, and I was at a measely 12.5k haste.

Further, EF will ALWAYS tick twice as often as SS, unless we start hitting ludicrous levels of haste.
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Re: [5.4 PTR] SS Nerf and EF

Postby Schroom » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:36 am

true it's not < 1.5s my bad. I confused sth here.

@ 50% haste
1.05*1.1*1.5=1.7325

73.25% Sphaste

Tef=3/1.7325= 1.73s
Tss=6/1.7325=3.46s

@ 40% haste
1.05*1.1*1.4=1.617

61.7% Sphaste

Tef=3/1.617=1.86s
Tss=6/1.617=3.71s


EF heals you twice as often, but for not twice as much anymore, but still more than SS. Bringing you back up with a tick to more HP than after a Hit that has been absorbed by SS., and this, twice as much. (damn what a sentence... )

the other pros and cons have been discussed enough in this Thread, so I won't bother listing them. both talents have theyr pros and cons.

I don't see the nerf big enough to really tip the scales tho. The gap is closer now. Making SS a definitve choice, depending on preference AND Encounter.

from a raw math PoV EF ist still > SS
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