6.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:47 am

Yeah, I imagined that if we were a 25 man guild, having a third tank there to switch taunting the boss more often and have some help on the adds would do wonders. Seems to be too much of a DPS loss for 10 man, though.

The fights where a lot of stuff is going on at the same time that needs to be done seem somewhat easier on 25 man, even though you probably get a lot more stuff on the ground to run out of.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fetzie » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:52 am

We tried three-tanking Horridon, but the third tank felt like he was just standing around most of the time and not contributing much at all, so we went back to two tanks and killed it a couple of attempts later.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Promdates » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:03 am

No point in 3 tanking it. We noticed the little adds on the gates had no real aggro table. No matter how much we tried we couldn't keep them on us, but we could keep all the important ones. I could try to solo tank it, I'd probably use US anyway just because it gives me an average cd on DP of 32-36 seconds. Can always have the two holy paladins HoP me.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:59 am

Which fights in ToT would you want to glyph Holy Wrath and Focused Wrath for? I was armory stalking Theck just now and noticed he had glyphed those.

I'm guessing they are for the Lei Shen fight? The adds are elementals so holy wrath stuns them? But they don't seem to respond to well aggro (at least to my efforts on LFR), so you'd rather all the damage went to Lei Shen?

Or are there other ToT fights when you'd want to use these glyphs? (They are very interesting glyphs to me but situational.)
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby daishan » Wed May 22, 2013 3:23 am

Meg hm adds are elementals, so very nice to have the stun glyph to interrupt them, just be careful as they'll go stun immune after a while then stuns won't even interupt them.
I personally never use focused wrath.

I do glyph final wrath for several fights, especially any fight that becomes more dangerous when the boss is at low health.
Iron Qon hm when all 3 dogs are up with low health final wrath is very nice.
Durumu hm stays sub 20% longer than normal due to life drains.
I'm unsure about the maths but I rank final wrath above alabasters shield on any fight where I'm not getting hit all the time.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed May 22, 2013 4:47 am

econ21 wrote:Which fights in ToT would you want to glyph Holy Wrath and Focused Wrath for? I was armory stalking Theck just now and noticed he had glyphed those.

I'm guessing they are for the Lei Shen fight? The adds are elementals so holy wrath stuns them? But they don't seem to respond to well aggro (at least to my efforts on LFR), so you'd rather all the damage went to Lei Shen?

Or are there other ToT fights when you'd want to use these glyphs? (They are very interesting glyphs to me but situational.)


I can't remember which fight in particular I glyphed those for, but it's definitely a situational thing. Focused Wrath is "free" in that it's a minor glyph, so I use it any time I don't want to cleave to adds (for example, in this case it was probably Twin Consorts - no point in cleaving to the meteors, as they're immune to damage).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fetzie » Fri May 24, 2013 4:43 am

Focused Wrath would be useful as the boss-tank on Tortos if you have somebody kiting the bats to avoid cleaving to them.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Fri May 31, 2013 2:01 am

Focused Wrath seems quite useful for any encounter where you'd like to focus damage on a single target, where damage on additional targets is wasted. Also, if you have Final Wrath, it makes sure that all the damage goes on the target below 20% and all possible damage is gained from the glyph, rather than having parts of it spiral off to different targets that aren't in execute range.

The only downside of Focused Wrath is that you can't use HW to pick up several mobs, but I find it pretty weak for picking up groups of mobs anyhow, as the damage output on a group of mobs is quite lowe. Naturally, if you use the Glyph to stun, you want it to hit all targets as well.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:10 pm

Theck, in due course, please could update this guide for 5.4 and/or maybe do a Sacred Duty blog survival guide for the patch? The thing I am most interested in some guidance on is EF vs SS, as that seems potentially to be the biggest change in how we should play. Most of the other 5.4 changes don't seem to imply significant changes in our behavior. I'll probably switch to the tank meta and cloak, stack stamina after capping haste, hit and experience but otherwise keep on doing what I do. Getting used to relying on EF rather than SS would be a big change for me though and I am rather vague on the whys and hows.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:12 am

EDIT: For clarification, the below comments apply to 5.4. Keep SS during 5.3!

As things are now, EF flat out beats SS even without Tier 16 4 piece, except on the pull, as you can't pre-pull EF.

EF also has some synergy with Tier 15 2 piece, so if you switch to EF, you might consider hanging on to them, until you can jump to Tier 16 4 piece.

You're only vulnerable on the pull. If you spec HA or SW, popping them at the pull should mitigate most of that.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:52 am

This is a newbie question, but when switching from SS to EF, how do we alternate between SotR and WoG? I only use WoG in an emergency or to recover from a big magic blast. I am pretty scrupulous in keeping up SS thanks to Theck's weakauras, and often refresh it to take advantage of increased vengeance. How should I use WoG/EF?
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:45 am

There's a thread about the SS nerf, which lead to an SS to EF discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33513

Your question made me think, though. Naturally, you want to cast it at 5 HoPo and 5 BoG. The 5 HoPo part is easy enough, but getting to 5 BoG within 30 seconds is rather tricky.

If you have T16 4pc, you don't care about how much HoPo you have at the moment. You simply want to cast it with as much BoG as possible.

Gonna toss it up as a discussion in the other thread.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:50 pm

econ21 wrote:Theck, in due course, please could update this guide for 5.4 and/or maybe do a Sacred Duty blog survival guide for the patch?

Yes, and yes. Also, I'm planning on an SS vs. EF blog post this week sometime, provided I get time to write it. Don't expect the guide to be updated until next weekend at the earliest though, as I don't want to mislead people into taking EF before 5.4.

econ21 wrote:This is a newbie question, but when switching from SS to EF, how do we alternate between SotR and WoG? I only use WoG in an emergency or to recover from a big magic blast. I am pretty scrupulous in keeping up SS thanks to Theck's weakauras, and often refresh it to take advantage of increased vengeance. How should I use WoG/EF?


The rudimentary sims I posted in the thread Thels linked just used EF as soon as we had 4+ stacks of BoG and less than 2 seconds remaining on the EF HoT. It was no more sophisticated than that. I've fooled around with some more intelligent conditions that improve it a bit though; essentially holding EF until you take a noticeable hit, even if it means that the buff drops off. For example, if you dodge 3 attacks in a row while the buff expires, the sim would wait to re-apply EF until you took some worthwhile damage. That improves EF's efficiency and thus reduces overall spikiness.

My 5.4 WeakAuras set will have EF support, though at this moment it isn't sophisticated enough to factor in Holy Power (it always assumes you use 3). If you want to try them out early, you can grab them from my pastebin.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:16 pm

Thanks for updating the guide, Theck, and also for the Weakauras strings which I am using.

I've been glyphing Word of Glory for the dps now that I've switched to EF, but reading your guide wonder if the dps I'll gain from it will be too small. Do you have a sense of how the numbers stack up compared to rivals for that slot like the nerfed alabaster shield and final wrath?

As a back of the envelope calculation, if you get 3% extra damage per HoPo for 6 seconds after using WoG, and we use WoG with 3HoPo every 30 seconds, that translates into a 1.8% increase in overall damage. (0.03x3x6/30)

That seems very close to what you simmed for rival glyphs pre 5.4.

For example, at 150k vengeance, I read your matlab results as saying that Final Wrath gives you 9% more damage in the enrage, so 1.8% overall. Alabaster shield gave 3.5% when it was a 20% buff, so I infer it would be about 1.8% with the nerf to a 10% buff.

Given that Blizzard wants to balance stuff, it's probably not a surprise if all 3 glyphs are each giving a similar (1.8%) dps buff.

My inference from this is that final wrath is the go to dps glyph (after focused shield) if, as seems often to be the case, dps in the final "enrage" phase of a fight is of special importance. Alabaster shield might be good if there are lots of adds. I guess I probably should stop glyphing WoG.
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Re: 5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:19 pm

I don't have any up-to-date numbers that are any more accurate than your guesses. Been too busy lately to finish writing the SimC automation code I've been working on, which should replace the 5.x MATLAB thread stuff.
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